The optimal configuration of weapons for mecha?

[Seto Kaiba]

But if we really stick to FMP, then isn't the answer is given already with 3rd gen AS are all versatile model? M9A1E1 is the only one* I know for being specialize, but it's still just M9A1 with lot of extra equipments.

Pretty much... unless you go to the Full Metal Panic! Another spinoff, which is of dubious canon status. Even then, it's just the French successor to the Mistral II that's trying unsuccessfully to rock the boat.

Mind you, even among the 2nd Generation designs, it was only the Mistral II that wasn't set up to be a high-mobility type with soldier-equivalent weapons. Not coincidentally, the Mistral II is also the only one out of that generation identified to be basically worthless in a fight.

[Areku]

Point of order: the F-35 is actually a pretty good design, and most of the information to the contrary is either premature (the F-35 is still in its testing phase, things are still being changed) or misinterpretations (like the whole "F-35 loses to an F-16 in a dogfight" thing, which is wrong on several levels; most importantly, it wasn't a dogfight and the F-35 didn't lose).

The problems with the program (which is late and over budget, to put it mildly) rather than the aircraft, though, I won't even try to defend.

The -A and -C designs are pretty good, but the -B is an over-complicated mess that tries to fill too many roles from the design phase. Specifically, the -B is heavily compromised by attempting to incorporate STOVL while maintaining a high degree of commonality with the -A and -C; ironically, this was done to save money, but has actually been the single greatest cause of the program's cost overrun, compounded by program faults like "necessary" changes to the -A and -C to accommodate flaws discovered in the -B and the fact that the program prioritized computer models to the near-exclusion of physical model and flight testing before moving into production (meaning those "necessary" changes were often applied retroactively and under great scrutiny).

-A and -C are solid designs that have been erroneously crammed into a few roles too many, -B is an over-reaching mess of a design that drags the other variants down by association, and the program binding them all together has been an utter disaster.

[Arsarcana]

Nitpicking, I think you mean M6 since M9 is 3rd gen.

I did mean the M9 but goofed in calling it 2nd Gen, thanks for catching that. It was in response to -Mit- apparently thinking that the fight in Burning One Man Force proves anything in any way related to his point. Which it doesn't really.

[-Mit-]

You're the one citing examples from a half-dozen other shows, none of which are related to the Full Metal Panic! series. ...

But which reflect the idea of a "fully armed" ... However, it does not matter, it's not about them ...

You don't really get a good picture of the global situation from the Full Metal Panic! anime, as it only covers a very small portion of a long story.

I love alternative history, and I like to explore the additional materials about my favorite worlds - so I perfectly know what is happening on the international scene in "Full Metal Panic!"

The problem may be different interpretations of the facts...

In actual fact, the Communists are doing quite well for themselves in the alternate history created by the Whispered. They control most of Eastern Europe, a good chunk of the Middle East (following that successful re-invasion of Afghanistan that played such a big role in Sousuke's backstory), and they've got half of China and a decent-sized chunk of Asia under their thumb as well.

In actual fact, in Eastern Europe, according to Grace Wiseman, go uprising and civil war - which, in principle, could not be if there were a "Warsaw Pact", the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 is an example. That is, the Soviet Union has no control over the country to the east of Belarus and Ukraine...

Furthermore, Afghanistan is, in fact, Central Asia, far from Syria or Palestine. If you mean a war with weapons of mass destruction, which broke out between Israel and the Arabs in the early 90's, it's a different topic...

China broke up, at least on the two warring states, after a long internecine war and it is very far from the current, real-historical, power ...

North Korea, well, it's North Korea ...

A sad picture, and in South-East Asia, where, in the best case, only recently ended another round of wars

And where is there to see the "power" or "success" of the Communists?

No, it is not... even today, you find that NATO allies will often buy weapons from each other to fill an operational niche that their own domestic products don't already fill. There are only a few nations in the NATO organization in Full Metal Panic! that produce their own domestic Arm Slaves, so the majority buy from those that do.

I'm glad for the NATO allies, however, tell me at least one European country to adopt "Abrams" or "F-16" for service...

Yes, AMALGAM was originally founded as a paramilitary organization without national ties, but it very quickly became corrupt and ended up in the pocket of the Soviets. A lot of what they do is the illegal sale of Soviet arms and covert field testing of Soviet-built weapons like the Zy-98 Shadow and Codarl series of AS's.

Funny theory, but according to the novels, "Amalgam" is managed jointly by various wealthy and influential people, like Japanese politicians, for example ... In the Soviet Union was a fraction of the summit, which is controlled "Amalgam", but by the end of the original story of its influence rid

Lord Mallory founded MITHRIL after leaving AMALGAM in a desperate (ultimately futile) effort to counter AMALGAM's growing power.

Perhaps, however, the leadership of "Mithril" was not made aware of the existence of "Amalgam"

You've got some stuff in there backwards, mate... the Japanese sources credit the C3-5 Mistral II as being inferior to the Rk-92 Savage and other contemporary AS designs in terms of its agility and its maneuverability on land. It's credited with having very simply electronics and being best used in a long-range engagement with firearms.

Nah, we have statements in the print sources that the Germans use the Drache and the British use the Cyclone... it's very curious that we don't have a similar statement WRT the Mistral II.

I have my sources, confirming my words, may select your own?

WRT the Arcenciel... it's unclear how official/canon the Full Metal Panic! Another manga is, so I'd take those with a grain of salt.

Another one from the dubious spinoff?

*sigh* Yeah, that's a spinoff that may or may not actually be canon to the Full Metal Panic! series. What goes on in that is not necessarily in line with the official story, mate.

By the way, "Full Metal Panic! Another" is the official continuation of the story "Full Metal Panic!" with the blessing of the Gato Shoji...

So the tendency to AS equip more powerful weapons available...

Most AS-carried rifles don't actually have that long of a range (a kilometer or two with any accuracy), and while the Mistral II's fire control is said to be good (vs. the Savage's) it's demonstrated to be very easy for high-mobility AS's to close that distance in a matter of minutes (or less). The Mistral II does not possess anti-ESC countermeasures either, so an ECS-equipped AS like a Bushnell, Gernsback, or a Shadow could walk right up to throwing range and hit it with the ATD with minimal risk of detection.

Once again I remind you that against the third generation AS useless in general, all second-AS, with rare exception...

And here, he Mistral II's fire control is said to be good (vs. the Savage's), this is definitely an advantage, if other things being equal...

Yes... though it's worth noting that the more agile AS's don't regard their blades as a weapon of the last resort, but rather as an excellent way to dispatch an enemy by getting SO close that he can't bring his guns to bear. (3rd Generation AS's seem to be EXTREMELY fond of this approach.)

Hmm? Here are pictures from the arsenal of the M9, though there is not a small pistol from the shoulder boards ...

http://www.toysdaily.com/discuz/uchome/ ... 80ZfyF.jpg
http://www.toysdaily.com/discuz/uchome/ ... 79WOS6.jpg

Various kinds of Cutters are a good secondary weapon, but the basic caliber they will not replace...

By the way, I won like that nine-charging rocket launcher:)

You've got a strangely selective (or perhaps anime-exclusive?) memory there... A21's Rk-92s made a mockery of MITHRIL's defenses and successfully abducted Commander Kalenin from a secure facility, Rk-91s and Rk-92s were the go-to AS for the Soviet re-invasion of Afghanistan and were practically an unstoppable force there (and were then used by the Afghanistani military against MITHRIL with some success), and a handful of Savages captured an entire MITHRIL rescue operation when Sousuke was in training. The Savage was not a joke mecha by a long shot, it was portrayed for almost the entire series as a terrifyingly capable machine in the hands of a trained pilot. (The problem was that it was so widely used that there were also a LOT of poorly trained pilots.)

Firstly, Commander Kalinin was captured by the Japanese military at the japanese base, where there were no the AS, and armored cars against the "Savages" of little use

Second, the Afghan mujahideen were usually put up against RK-92 anti-tank grenade launchers, sometimes captured "Savages" - they can not be called a serious adversary

Third, the Sagara training team, captured in South America, also consisted of a mere infantry - see second "paragraph"

In other words, "RK-92 Savage" good against infantry and light armored vehicles, equivalent to AS of the second generation and is useless against the M9 and the like... The only notable exception in the original history It`s fight Sagara on "Crossbow" against "Amalgam" M9 in Nam Sach (it had a Whispered working on it)...

Privilege "evasion shells" owned by the third generation AS, the second is usually "miss"

Presumably because it continues to sell to third world countries... though it may simply be the same problem as the F-35, an ongoing disaster being dragged out because the military doesn't want to own up to the fact that it sunk money into a bad design.

Evidence of such assumptions are?

Most of those have not been released in any language but Japanese... so the question is, have YOU actually read them, or just summaries of them posted by Animesuki users?

To begin with, all the volumes of the original "Full Metal Panic!" translated into my native language thanks to the efforts of the fans, as well as manga "Full Metal Panic! Sigma", which is a retelling of all novels.

Additionally, a manga "Full Metal Panic! Another" is translated into English and my mother language...

"Animesuki users", ha... Interestingly, this is a syndrome of "great translator / linguist" - to declare that "I know a little bit," and then give that all the other worthless clumsy?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not understand one thing, you guys seriously think that the eight-meter humanoid war machines as the AS are created exclusively for carrying a single 40 mm gun and knife?

[Arsarcana]

I'm glad for the NATO allies, however, tell me at least one European country to adopt "Abrams" or "F-16" for service...

Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Portugal.

It literally took me five seconds to look that up. Research, try it sometime.

[Areku]

Furthermore, Afghanistan is, in fact, Central Asia, far from Syria or Palestine.

"Middle East" is a relatively vague term, based in culture more so than geography. Even IRL, quite a few interpretations of the Middle East include Pakistan, Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan; some even extend as far as Kazakhstan and Mauritania. A cursory glance through some FMP! references suggests that Afghanistan is also considered to be in the Middle East in that universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

In actual fact, in Eastern Europe, according to Grace Wiseman, go uprising and civil war - which, in principle, could not be if there were a "Warsaw Pact", the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 is an example. That is, the Soviet Union has no control over the country to the east of Belarus and Ukraine...

Not sure where you're getting that, because the backstory materials mention that the history of the Soviet Union is the same as the real world equivalent until the 1980's, when Mikhail Gorbachev was assassinated by parties unspecified to prevent his Glasnost and Perestroika reforms from gradually weakening the Communist government's power. Czechoslovakia were the ones who first pushed for that military alliance, which was formed in 1955 before the timeline diverged.

Furthermore, Afghanistan is, in fact, Central Asia, far from Syria or Palestine. If you mean a war with weapons of mass destruction, which broke out between Israel and the Arabs in the early 90's, it's a different topic...

The common definition of the term "Middle East" does encompass Afghanistan... the so-called "Greater Middle East", as the Bush administration liked to call it.

Also, you may be misremembering... the war that escalated to a nuclear strike was the 1991 Gulf War, in which parties unknown (presumed to be AMALGAM-backed) deployed a nuclear weapon against the coalition forces responding to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

I'm glad for the NATO allies, however, tell me at least one European country to adopt "Abrams" or "F-16" for service...

Operators of the M1 Abrams MBT include Australia, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco. Greece, Peru, and China have all made overtures in an effort to obtain the Abrams for their own forces as well.

There are twenty-five countries besides the United States which currently use the General Dynamics F-16 Falcon. It used to be twenty-six, but Italy only leased them and let its lease lapse. That does not count Japan's domestically-produced F-16 derivative known as the Mitsubishi F-2.

Funny theory, but according to the novels, "Amalgam" is managed jointly by various wealthy and influential people, like Japanese politicians, for example ... In the Soviet Union was a fraction of the summit, which is controlled "Amalgam", but by the end of the original story of its influence rid

Not "is managed". "Was managed", past tense. The founders were British, American, Russian, German, and Japanese. The people who actually control it have changed considerably since it was founded, and its primary business is selling Soviet arms and testing weapons for the Soviets under battlefield conditions. Literally 100% of its equipment is Soviet-made, with the entire Codarl series being derivative of the Zy-98 the way the Arbalest is from the M9.

Perhaps, however, the leadership of "Mithril" was not made aware of the existence of "Amalgam"

It's never made clear exactly how many of MITHRIL's founders were in the dark.

I have my sources, confirming my words, may select your own?

So far, you've cited inaccurate translations and made statements that contradict direct statements out of the novels themselves. Clearly I'm on to something, because I'm not the one everyone else in this thread is correcting.

By the way, "Full Metal Panic! Another" is the official continuation of the story "Full Metal Panic!" with the blessing of the Gato Shoji...

Correction... Full Metal Panic! Another is one of a number of spinoffs produced under the nominal supervision of Shoji Gatoh. Very few (if any) are actually canon to the core Full Metal Panic! story. Many are alternate versions of events, or simply comedic side stories.

Once again I remind you that against the third generation AS useless in general, all second-AS, with rare exception...

All I can tell you is the simple fact that, canonically, the Mistral II is said to be junk and all but useless against a 2nd or 3rd Generation AS from any of the major world powers. This fact is demonstrated on several occasions in the series, where its lack of agility is shown to be a crippling disadvantage in any fight (fair or otherwise).

And here, he Mistral II's fire control is said to be good (vs. the Savage's), this is definitely an advantage, if other things being equal...

Key words being "vs. the Savage's". Being slightly better than rubbish isn't enough to qualify as good, but then the Savage was designed to fire on the move where the Mistral II was designed to fire from a standstill (which makes it more vulnerable).

Hmm? Here are pictures from the arsenal of the M9, though there is not a small pistol from the shoulder boards ...

Various kinds of Cutters are a good secondary weapon, but the basic caliber they will not replace...

Tell that to MITHRIL... they are entirely too fond of getting in close and solving their problems with a monomolecular cutter or anti-tank dagger. There's a REASON the Arbalest is set up almost exclusively for short-range combat and its augmentations include extra bladed weapons rather than guns.

Firstly, Commander Kalinin was captured by the Japanese military at the japanese base, where there were no the AS, and armored cars against the "Savages" of little use

A21 is not the Japanese military, it's a terrorist organization formerly run by a crazy survivalist who took in orphans and trained them in combat skills, before his operation was exposed and he committed suicide. A21 was backed by AMALGAM, from whom they got their Rk-92s and their one Behemoth test unit.

Second, the Afghan mujahideen were usually put up against RK-92 anti-tank grenade launchers, sometimes captured "Savages" - they can not be called a serious adversary

Anti-tank missiles are shown to be more than capable of downing an AS, and Badakshun's Tiger did capture Rk-91's and Rk-92's during their attempts to repel the Soviet re-invasion of Afghanistan.

Third, the Sagara training team, captured in South America, also consisted of a mere infantry - see second "paragraph"

IIRC, they specifically mention taking AS's with them when the first group leaves base. It's the second group who had to go on foot.

Evidence of such assumptions are?

Explicit statements in the series art book and novel.

I do not understand one thing, you guys seriously think that the eight-meter humanoid war machines as the AS are created exclusively for carrying a single 40 mm gun and knife?

Explicitly, they were created to be "mechanized infantry"... so, yeah pretty much.

They are, in effect, designed to be a tank substitute with greater terrain coverage capabilities and an ability to change armament without modification. They're not designed to do everything, just to fight other Arm Slaves, tanks, and many have some light weaponry to protect themselves from infantry in the event that they're operating ahead of their own forces.

[MythSearcher]

Giving a more real world perspective.

Fighters(planes) that can use a lot of different weaponery mainly uses missiles, and thus does not really need to take into account the recoil of the different weapons. The machine cannon, the fixed weapon, onboard doesn't really gets changed that easily.

Mechas, if wanting to adapt this path of equipmentology(yes, I made this term up), either should be also using mainly just low recoil weapons like missiles or rockets or small calibre guns, or simply need a really strong manipulator system, which will be a complete waste of payload when using a small calibre gun.

Think about this, if you design and manufactured a weapon holding system that can fire a weapon with a 60,000g recoil regularly and a 100,000g recoil occasionally, why on Earth do you want it to be using just a mere 8,000g recoil weapon most of the time? If you mass produce this kind of mecha, and every 10 of them you only get 2 using a 60,000g weapon and 1 using a 100,000g weapon, the rest 7 uses a 8,000g weapon, it is not only a waste of money, all that added structure integrity means added mass and thus slower turning speed plus increased manufacturing time. You aim slower, which makes the mecha actually weaker. The problem is that you cannot use design a mecha to just withstand a 8,000g recoil and tweak it to use more powerful weapons, all the joints has to be changed and the main frame structure needed to be strengthened, thus you basically redesigned and build a new mecha.(actually designing and building a new one is cheaper than revamping an old one)
Changing the main gun sounded like an intuitive choice since human beings can use a wide range of calibre, but in an military economic view point, mechas doesn't fit that kind of design. You can't change the design of an infantry soldier to make him/her more economical, but you can change the design of a mecha.

You don't really see ground combat vehicles changing their weapons that much, yes, you get some tanks being retro fitted with another gun, but then they don't get changed for many years.
As I recall the Stryker was designed with the mindset that the main weapon can be changed, but most don't get changed once settled in a specific role.

Likely the main stay of guns used in mecha will be the smallest calibre the minimal frame that can support itself can withstand, at first stationery, later when moving.(since walking, running and thrusting already puts a lot of stress on the frame, firing at the same time, which puts yet another type of stress on the frame, requires a stronger frame) Then you get smaller numbers of special units designed and built to use larger calibre weapons. Occasionally the stronger ones might be able to use the smaller weapons in specific situations, but at those times they will be the weaker of the bunch.

BTW, I am against using mecha inside atmosphere.(including all ground, air and naval combats, but excludes space, inside space colonies and on top of low gravity celectial bodies like the moon or asteroids)

Another angle of viewing this is, mainly the ability and efficiency of using multiple weapons at the same time.
Fighters can be equipped with half a dozen or maybe even a score(20) of missiles because each missile can only be fired once, it is the whole magazine of the fighter, just like saying the RB-79 has 21 shots of its 120mm/180mm recoiless cannon. They can be fired at the same time against a dozen of targets is in turn because they are "Fire and forget" weapons, like the F-22 has the ability to target 100 targets and control the missiles from friendly unit that gave it the control to chase after all these targets automatically.
A mecha, with only 1 pilot, would need to be pretty automatic it is wanted to use multiple weapons. If you really want to use something like a humanoid machine with twin shoulder bazookas, small arms on each hand, twin waist cannons and maybe even leg missiles and fire at multiple targets, I am not saying that you can't do it yourself, maybe you can, maybe even with really high accuracy, but the reality is that most pilots cannot do it without heavy supporting from the onboard computer and highly sophisticated target tracking system.

This would be much much easier for air and space combat, where you have little to none interference, quite hard for naval and really hard for ground combat since there are quite a lot of interference and obstructions.

[-Mit-]

Operators of the M1 Abrams MBT include Australia, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco. Greece, Peru, and China have all made overtures in an effort to obtain the Abrams for their own forces as well.

Greece does not use the "Abrams", but only outdated "M60A1 / A3" and "M48A5" ... the core of its tank fleet up the German "Leopard"... Europeans prefer their national models or German, not American

As for the rest of the listed countries - some of which is NATO?

Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Portugal.

...which currently use the General Dynamics F-16 Falcon. It used to be twenty-six, but Italy only leased them and let its lease lapse. That does not count Japan's domestically-produced F-16 derivative known as the Mitsubishi F-2.

I admit, "the F-16 Falcon," is in service of these countries, except Italy and Belgium ...

However, most of them also is armed fighter / attack aircraft from other European countries (even the Soviet Union), which is explained by the absence of its own development in this area, with the exception of the Netherlands, with their licensed assembly of the F-16 ...

Note that the leading EU countries have their own aircraft production prefer the "Eurofighter Typhoon" or national models...

-------------------------

In "Full Metal Panic!" a similar situation - the leading European countries, instead of buying American "M6" M9 ", developing their own AS and promote them on the international market ... the French have it pretty well

Not sure where you're getting that, because the backstory materials mention that the history of the Soviet Union is the same as the real world equivalent until the 1980's, when Mikhail Gorbachev was assassinated by parties unspecified to prevent his Glasnost and Perestroika reforms from gradually weakening the Communist government's power. Czechoslovakia were the ones who first pushed for that military alliance, which was formed in 1955 before the timeline diverged.

It seems that you do not understand the contents of the read...

According to Grace Wiseman, a female character from the "Afghan Team" which was attached to the Sagara, Eastern Europe, from where this girl came from, do not stop the war and revolts. She participated in the insurgency ...

If the "Warsaw Pact" existed, the Soviet Union quickly suppress any ethnic conflicts and social unrest in the territory under its control, by analogy with Czechoslovakia in 1968

That is, the Russia has no control over the country to the east of Belarus and Ukraine...

The common definition of the term "Middle East" does encompass Afghanistan... the so-called "Greater Middle East", as the Bush administration liked to call it.

Even if you call Afghanistan "Greater Middle East", he will not be closer to the Persian Gulf ... Besides, it is surrounded by the US allied Pakistan and "South China", unfriendly Iran and neutral India

A21 is not the Japanese military, it's a terrorist organization formerly run by a crazy survivalist who took in orphans and trained them in combat skills, before his operation was exposed and he committed suicide. A21 was backed by AMALGAM, from whom they got their Rk-92s and their one Behemoth test unit.

Yes, yes, of course ... but they attacked some poorly guarded base in Japan

Second, the Afghan mujahideen were usually put up against RK-92 anti-tank grenade launchers, sometimes captured "Savages" - they can not be called a serious adversary

The truth is it did not really help, Soviet, nevertheless, conquered Afghanistan, albeit at the second attempt

IIRC, they specifically mention taking AS's with them when the first group leaves base. It's the second group who had to go on foot.

Our translators, unfortunately, this mini-story is not involved, but not in the anime or manga, is not mentioned in "the first group of AS", Mithril soldiers did not suspect the existence of "Savages" from rebels...

The link to the source, please?

Also, you may be misremembering... the war that escalated to a nuclear strike was the 1991 Gulf War, in which parties unknown (presumed to be AMALGAM-backed) deployed a nuclear weapon against the coalition forces responding to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

From the comments of our translator of novels:
"In 1992, during the Gulf War, it was to use nuclear weapons, which has initiated a devastating fifth Arab-Israeli war, the outcome of which I was, however, unknown."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not "is managed". "Was managed", past tense. The founders were British, American, Russian, German, and Japanese. The people who actually control it have changed considerably since it was founded, and its primary business is selling Soviet arms and testing weapons for the Soviets under battlefield conditions.

Here is a quote from the novel "Semaru Nick of Time", action which takes place long after the events of "The Second Raid":

Spoiler

The participants in the virtual room were scattered on various corners of the globe. Gold was in the Far East - in Tokyo. Office is located on the upper level of a luxury office building, plunged into the sky in Akasaka. As soon rise up and take a few steps to leave the office to before it opened magnificent views of the evening types Nakata through the thick bulletproof glass and high strength.

He was Japanese. An important person, politician, concentrated in his hands a huge impact - and at the same time a patriot of his country. Strictly controlling the terrorism in the country, he used violence only in the required doses, avoiding senseless and uncontrolled actions. It was he, carefully weighing the situation, he rejected the idea of ​​nuclear terrorism and instead gave permission for riot steel monsters - "Behemoth" - is just as impressive, but less destructive. However, simultaneously with the preparation of the operation for the transfer of "Behemoth" into the hands of terrorist organizations A21, he prudently acquired "safety button". If necessary, he would be able to terminate this crazy idea one touch
thumb, run the self-destruct system of the giant bronerobota. As conceived by Mr. Gold, "Hippo" was necessary to cause destruction, heading towards the center of the city, and retreat at dawn.
The number of high-profile terrorist attacks are organized on Mr. Gold
Over the past year, it was too much. In Japan, the Ministry of Security broke a real scandal. The current Minister, who replaced his predecessor, less pliable, who shouldered responsibility for connivance of terrorists and blamed the deadly sins, carefully cleaned up all traces of the secret manipulation, depriving the public every opportunity to learn the truth.

Yes, of course, with the conventional view of Mr. Gold, author of the new
the crisis could be confidently called a traitor and conspirator.
But in this game all the players have been dishonest. The world consisted of deceit and
violent struggle for existence. And even survived it is not necessarily the winner could reap a rich harvest. Truly a miracle that a small island country, so poor resources, flourished during the last fifty years, not allowing himself to be drawn into international conflicts. He felt responsible for ensuring that this economic miracle continue.
It is for this purpose, he participated in the creation of Amalgam, for her sake, he
effectively used the organization's resources. It is a patriotic duty forced him to take the initiative and start a "kingdom of rigged games."
...
MP Kaneyama Takeshi - just your mask. Your legal cover. But the main theme of the news tonight will be just you, Mr. Gold.

"Amalgam" managed by the International Council of the wealthy and influential members, not the Soviet Union ...

Sorry, but you're wrong

So far, you've cited inaccurate translations and made statements that contradict direct statements out of the novels themselves.

I gave a brief squeeze of information and links to their source, you did not. If you do not like the translation "Animesuki", then demonstrate your option ...

As shown by the words of Grace Wiseman and quote from "Semaru Nick of Time" your information, to put it mildly, not exact ...

Correction... Full Metal Panic! Another is one of a number of spinoffs produced under the nominal supervision of Shoji Gatoh. Very few (if any) are actually canon to the core Full Metal Panic! story. Many are alternate versions of events, or simply comedic side stories.

The action of the novel and manga "Full Metal Panic! Another" takes place after eleven years after the events of the end of "Always, Stand by Me", last original story ranobe. In other words, this story is the official continuation/sequel, blessed by Gato Shoji (Supervising Editor).

Incidentally, in the "FMP!" not be the principle of "officially everything is animated," and ""All the works are only creative interpretation based on "real" events". What does it mean, all the novels and stories of "FMP!" it is an absolute "CANON"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All I can tell you is the simple fact that, canonically, the Mistral II is said to be junk and all but useless against a 2nd or 3rd Generation AS from any of the major world powers. This fact is demonstrated on several occasions in the series, where its lack of agility is shown to be a crippling disadvantage in any fight (fair or otherwise).

The only time when the "Mistral" was shown in the anime, they had to fight against the "M9" and "Arbalest" - the result of a bit predictable for all second generation AS ...

When one of them, a converted for sports fights, showed us in Nam Sach, it destroyed Sagara on the "Сrossbow" together with the "M9" and dozens of other AS models - that can not be considered any indication because the "syndrome of the protagonist"

Somehow it does not pull on objective data

Key words being "vs. the Savage's". Being slightly better than rubbish isn't enough to qualify as good, but then the Savage was designed to fire on the move where the Mistral II was designed to fire from a standstill (which makes it more vulnerable).

In "Mistral" has six self-guided anti-tank missiles, with a decent range of lesion + his automatic gun has a larger caliber...

Moreover, judging by the first episode of "the TSR", "Mistral" calmly shoot on the move...

Tell that to MITHRIL... they are entirely too fond of getting in close and solving their problems with a monomolecular cutter or anti-tank dagger. There's a REASON the Arbalest is set up almost exclusively for short-range combat and its augmentations include extra bladed weapons rather than guns.

The main weapons of the "Arbalest" is a smoothbore gun with a manual recharging "Oto Melara Boxer" 57mm, fragmentation grenades "Honeywell M1067", anti-dagger "Royal Ordanance M1108", monomolecular cutter "Geotron Electronics GRAW-2"
https://openranka.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/fmp.jpg

The main weapons of the "M9" is automatic gun "Oerlikon Contraves GEC-B" 40 mm smoothbore gun "Bofors ASG96-b" of 57 mm, a monomolecular cutter "Geotron Electronics GRAW-2", anti-dagger "Royal Ordnance M10", launcher "Versile II" for guided missiles "Hellfire"

As can be seen in "Mithril" love and guns and missiles and grenades. Cutters used in a confined space, like an improvisation at difficulties in the use of firearms, and as a consequence of "chivalrous nonsense" ...

Even master of martial arts, Belfangan Clouseau, relies on a firearm in a real fight...

"Amalgam" also prefers thoroughly equip their AS:

Gatling gun for Zaid "Shadow"
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/ful ... 0616232249

two autocannon for Gates "Venom"
http://i.imgur.com/mGbJdjN.jpg

they even made gunblades for the Xia Yu Fan "Shadow"

Explicitly, they were created to be "mechanized infantry"... so, yeah pretty much. They are, in effect, designed to be a tank substitute with greater terrain coverage capabilities and an ability to change armament without modification. They're not designed to do everything, just to fight other Arm Slaves, tanks, and many have some light weaponry to protect themselves from infantry in the event that they're operating ahead of their own forces.

And one more quote from the novel "Semaru Nick of Time":

Spoiler

Despite the fact that the AS were the crown of the latest high-tech,
they were never able to get closer to the good old tanks nor the level of security or firepower. Reservation humanoid fighting machines, in principle, could not resist the ingress of shells powerful tank guns, and their main weapons - small-caliber automatic cannon - was not able to hit the tank in the front.

The front projection - an area facing the enemy and the most prone
Hit - its area in AS is several times higher than the same
indicators in the tanks. Furthermore, unlike the squat tanks vertically
oriented silhouette moving bronerobota, towering above the ground on eight or nine meters, it was much easier to find and hit.

The main advantages of AS is their maneuverability, ability to operate on almost any terrain, and active use of the advantages offered by the local objects, to hide from enemy fire. But to do it in the desert was very difficult.

AS could not expect to win in a direct duel with tanks fire, so "Mithril" AS used dug around the base of "The Alamo" ditches as trenches to escape the whistling over the desert piercing billets. Firing anti-tank missiles, they quickly replaced the position jumping from one ditch to another, and using smoke screens, tools and infrared jamming traps.

Primitive tactics, but the other way is still not there.

Even with all its virtues, AS useless against well-armored vehicles without rockets ...

Draw conclusions, gentlemen

[-Mit-]

Mechas, if wanting to adapt this path of equipmentology(yes, I made this term up), either should be also using mainly just low recoil weapons like missiles or rockets or small calibre guns, or simply need a really strong manipulator system, which will be a complete waste of payload when using a small calibre gun.

In "Full Metal Panic!", mecha armed with 76mm recoilless guns and / or self-guided anti-tank / helicopter rockets

Changing the main gun sounded like an intuitive choice since human beings can use a wide range of calibre, but in an military economic view point, mechas doesn't fit that kind of design. You can't change the design of an infantry soldier to make him/her more economical, but you can change the design of a mecha.

What if AS from the beginning designed for the use of heavy weapons?
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/sohryu_l ... iginal.jpg
http://fullmetalpanic.wikia.com/wiki/Fi ... iginal.jpg

A mecha, with only 1 pilot, would need to be pretty automatic it is wanted to use multiple weapons. If you really want to use something like a humanoid machine with twin shoulder bazookas, small arms on each hand, twin waist cannons and maybe even leg missiles and fire at multiple targets, I am not saying that you can't do it yourself, maybe you can, maybe even with really high accuracy, but the reality is that most pilots cannot do it without heavy supporting from the onboard computer and highly sophisticated target tracking system.

Keep it simple

- Large-caliber machine guns against infantry and buggy; 40mm autocannon, with more ammunition and a grenade launcher; 3-6 chargers rocket launchers on his shoulders, and of a large cutter ...

- Something like a knight's shield as additional armor, reactive armor and active protection system

(Individually, all these elements are in "Full Metal Panic!")

Electronic systems of the "Mistral" is enough for control machine gun, autocannon and 6 missiles; a third generation has an artificial intelligence system as support

[Seto Kaiba]

Greece does not use the "Abrams", but only outdated "M60A1 / A3" and "M48A5" ... the core of its tank fleet up the German "Leopard"... Europeans prefer their national models or German, not American

*sigh* You clearly didn't read what I wrote, and you clearly don't check your facts either.

What I said was that, in addition to the listed nations which already use the Abrams, Greece, Peru, and China have considered or are negotiating to purchase the M1 Abrams. Last anyone heard, Greece was considering buying 90 M1 Abrams tanks.

As for the rest of the listed countries - some of which is NATO?

Several of the countries on that list are NATO global partners (Australia and Iraq).

I admit, "the F-16 Falcon," is in service of these countries, except Italy and Belgium ...

You're actually incorrect here as well. Italy only leased the F-16, as I noted previously, but Belgium was building them locally and still operating them. Belgium is in talks to purchase the F-35, but are still using their F-16s and have deployed them as recently as last year.

If the "Warsaw Pact" existed, the Soviet Union quickly suppress any ethnic conflicts and social unrest in the territory under its control, by analogy with Czechoslovakia in 1968

The Soviet Union explicitly didn't have an easy time suppressing ethnic conflicts and regional revolts in the Full Metal Panic! universe. They had to invade Afghanistan twice before they managed to take it, and only succeeded because the Afghani rebels were betrayed by their allies. Your conclusion doesn't tally with the in-story evidence.

From the comments of our translator of novels:
"In 1992, during the Gulf War, it was to use nuclear weapons, which has initiated a devastating fifth Arab-Israeli war, the outcome of which I was, however, unknown."

Yes, the Gulf War started in 1980 and, in the real world, ended in 1991. It didn't end the same way in the Full Metal Panic! universe (because in the real world, Iraq didn't have an ally able to give them nuclear weaponry).

Here is a quote from the novel "Semaru Nick of Time", action which takes place long after the events of "The Second Raid":

You're confusing their physical whereabouts with their nationalities. For instance, Mr. Silver (Leonard Testarossa) is Italian-American. We don't even know what nationality Gauron and Gates were (they were, IIRC, Mr. Iron and Mr. Kalium respectively).

"Amalgam" managed by the International Council of the wealthy and influential members, not the Soviet Union ...

You're not actually contradicting me, you're arguing a completely different point. AMALGAM was run by a clique of anonymous members, only a handful of whom we actually see or hear about before Leonard kills almost all of them. However, we know for an absolute fact that AMALGAM is closely affiliated with the Soviet Union and does a lot of the field testing of Soviet weapons for them while they're busy war-profiteering. Literally everything their soldiers use is Soviet-made or modified from Soviet equipment.

The action of the novel and manga "Full Metal Panic! Another" takes place after eleven years after the events of the end of "Always, Stand by Me", last original story ranobe. In other words, this story is the official continuation/sequel, blessed by Gato Shoji (Supervising Editor).

That doesn't mean it's canon. There are a number of other titles, ALSO produced under supervision of Shoji Gatoh, which are not canon despite presenting material not directly connected to the main series. This is a fairly standard Japanese marketing practice, having side stories and alterniverse stories that don't fit into the main story, simply to milk a few more yen out of the fans.

Incidentally, in the "FMP!" not be the principle of "officially everything is animated," and ""All the works are only creative interpretation based on "real" events". What does it mean, all the novels and stories of "FMP!" it is an absolute "CANON"

Kind of my point, actually... the Full Metal Panic! Another manga is not a continuation of the novel series.

The only time when the "Mistral" was shown in the anime, they had to fight against the "M9" and "Arbalest" - the result of a bit predictable for all second generation AS ...

The result was predictable there, yes... because the Mistral II's were being operated by whomever the Balic Republic's impoverished military could afford, and MITHRIL was deploying LRIP M9E Gernsbacks and the Arbalest, which hardly made it a fair fight. That doesn't change the fact that the writeups for the mecha in every print source that exists to date identify the Mistral II as a substandard AS which is popular in export sales because its terrible performance makes it cheap.

In "Mistral" has six self-guided anti-tank missiles, with a decent range of lesion + his automatic gun has a larger caliber...

Per the print sources, that doesn't compensate for its low mobility and slow reaction times compared to the other AS's of its generation.

Moreover, judging by the first episode of "the TSR", "Mistral" calmly shoot on the move...

Without hitting anything... even a blind idiot can achieve that much.

As can be seen in "Mithril" love and guns and missiles and grenades. Cutters used in a confined space, like an improvisation at difficulties in the use of firearms, and as a consequence of "chivalrous nonsense" ...

You're attempting to draw a conclusion based entirely on a list of available weapons, rather than the usage of those weapons in combat. MITHRIL's pilots resort to knives with almost unseemly enthusiasm most of the time (usually whenever they want to settle a fight quickly, like taking out sand filters from Savage engines).

"Amalgam" also prefers thoroughly equip their AS:

Most of them only carry one gun system and a combat blade... that's not really "thoroughly armed".

Even with all its virtues, AS useless against well-armored vehicles without rockets ...

Draw conclusions, gentlemen

You realize your own quotation there just proved my point for me, right?

[Areku]

The hell is this topic even about?

Posts #1 and #3: How do you optimize a mecha's weapons loadout?
Post #9: No no no, can't you read? I asked "Which is better in FMP!, Mistral (limbed vehicle) or Savage (humanoid mecha)?".
Remainder of TC's posts: Vain attempts to argue that the Mistral isn't a hulking piece of crap. When every one of those attempts fails, endlessly (and falsely) nitpicks irrelevant details.

Face it, -Mit-, the Mistral is a barely-mobile pile of junk. I don't know if this topic was supposed to be an elaborately obfuscated effort at a favorites or versus topic or quote war or whatever, but so far all it's served to accomplish is to make you look like a rude fool.

For example, take the following exchange:

Spoiler

The GIAT C3-5 Mistral II is the ONLY 2nd Generation AS to have not gone with the high agility fully humanoid frame structure, and it suffers as a result. It's basically the AS that's bought by banana republics and other third-world countries who can't afford the decent quality equipment that's sold by NATO to its allies and are too capitalist to buy secondhand Rk-91's and Rk-92's from the Soviet Union or its allies directly.

A small correction, "Mistral" sells well in third world countries because it has a low cost (by Western standards for the equipment), and to export models use diesel engines, less powerful, but take advantage of AS in industrially underdeveloped countries.

Your "correction" isn't accurate though... it's explicitly stated that the reason the C3-5 Mistral II is found among the armies of oppressive third-world governments and banana republics is that they are sold to those countries via the Soviet-backed paramilitary organization AMALGAM, who made the Mistral available because those countries weren't Soviet-friendly enough or flush with enough cash to obtain the higher-performance Soviet-made Rk series AS's. The Mistral II is, canonically, kind of absolutely-goddamn-awful as AS's go.

And one more thing, except M6 Bushnell, which probably comes to Israel, "Mistral" is the only western AS a reliable supply of which in other countries generally known

That's also not quite accurate... you have to remember that Full Metal Panic! is set in an alternate history where the Cold War never ended.

The world is basically split between NATO and its allies, the Warsaw Pact and its allies, and those unaffiliated countries we know as the third world. NATO member states and NATO allies used the American M6 Bushnell, the German Drache, the British Cyclone, or French Mistral II, though some (like Japan) built their own local variations of same. Japan's Type 96 is actually a modified, local version of the M6 Bushnell. The Soviet Union's member states and allies use the Rk-91 and Rk-92 for their forces. Third world countries like the Balic Republic (from TSR) have to buy their AS's in black market deals or secondhand from the major world powers.

Did you know that just listed paragraphs are mutually exclusive? If Europeans are national models mecha, then why should they American? It's like to say - "All NATO countries must rearm in the "Abrams" tanks because they are made in NATO and it does not matter that they have the "Leopards","Leclerc" and "Challenger"!"

No, it is not... even today, you find that NATO allies will often buy weapons from each other to fill an operational niche that their own domestic products don't already fill. There are only a few nations in the NATO organization in Full Metal Panic! that produce their own domestic Arm Slaves, so the majority buy from those that do.

I'm glad for the NATO allies, however, tell me at least one European country to adopt "Abrams" or "F-16" for service...

Operators of the M1 Abrams MBT include Australia, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco. Greece, Peru, and China have all made overtures in an effort to obtain the Abrams for their own forces as well.

There are twenty-five countries besides the United States which currently use the General Dynamics F-16 Falcon. It used to be twenty-six, but Italy only leased them and let its lease lapse. That does not count Japan's domestically-produced F-16 derivative known as the Mitsubishi F-2.

Greece does not use the "Abrams", but only outdated "M60A1 / A3" and "M48A5" ... the core of its tank fleet up the German "Leopard"... Europeans prefer their national models or German, not American

As for the rest of the listed countries - some of which is NATO?

Denmark, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Portugal.

I admit, "the F-16 Falcon," is in service of these countries, except Italy and Belgium ...

However, most of them also is armed fighter / attack aircraft from other European countries (even the Soviet Union), which is explained by the absence of its own development in this area, with the exception of the Netherlands, with their licensed assembly of the F-16 ...

Note that the leading EU countries have their own aircraft production prefer the "Eurofighter Typhoon" or national models...

-------------------------

In "Full Metal Panic!" a similar situation - the leading European countries, instead of buying American "M6" M9 ", developing their own AS and promote them on the international market ... the French have it pretty well

So... let me get this straight. In this exchange, you start off by arguing that the Mistral isn't a piece of junk compared to its contemporaries because nobody would buy or use it if it weren't at least comparable to its contemporaries. Then, when it's pointed out that the groups/nations that actually used it didn't have the funds or alliances to acquire literally any other contemporary AS, you... try to argue about real-world European arms exchanges and American weapons exports? Okay, I suppose that's somewhat relevant, but what point are you trying to make? (Is it that France wouldn't produce it in the first place if they didn't plan on using it? If so, then like everything else you've posted, it was poorly articulated.) It really just looks like you're trying to nitpick and chip away at Seto Kaiba's credibility with random non sequiturs. Anyway, you assert that American F-16s and M1 Abrams aren't exported or leased to other nations, then post blatantly false statements that are easily refuted with basic research; for example, typing "Greece M1A1" into Google quickly produces results describing America's interest in selling 400 M1A1s to Greece in 2012 and Greece's interest in buying 90 of them in 2015 (the next closest thing to Greece buying M1A1s, easily establishing the groundwork of American-European modern MBT sales).

So, uh, I'll just ask it again: What's the point of this topic? Do you at least acknowledge that the Mistral is a piece of crap and that its type of design (limbed vehicle) was completely abandoned by the 3rd generation of AS, providing a clear in-universe answer to your "original" question?

[MythSearcher]

What if AS from the beginning designed for the use of heavy weapons?

I guess you didn't get what I was saying.

If you design a unit that uses heavy weapons, the whole frame needs to withstand the recoil(I see that the smooth bore gun is not a recoiless weapon)
With the same power output, but a heavier frame(including all supporting structures and joints, etc.) you simply move slower, thus less suitable for combat, even when you use a weaker weapon.
You can give it a more powerful power source, but then the question will be "Why don't you give it to a lighter model?"

Depending on the scale of the production, building hundreds of units already means that you can design and build 2~3 difference models that suits different weapons.

Giving a more FMP world economical sample of the 2nd gen AS:(with estimations from the 3rd gen M9 costing around a few dozen million USD, but real world cost scale according to my engineering background)
A) machine gun AS(without ability to use heavy arms): around $8~10mil.
B) heavy weaponery AS(same power source as above, improved frame): around $12~15mil.
C) multipurpose AS(better power source and frame, performance wise=A when using machine gun): around $20~25mil.

For every $25mil I pay, I'd rather have A+B than just a C.

Keep it simple

- Large-caliber machine guns against infantry and buggy; 40mm autocannon, with more ammunition and a grenade launcher; 3-6 chargers rocket launchers on his shoulders, and of a large cutter ...

- Something like a knight's shield as additional armor, reactive armor and active protection system

(Individually, all these elements are in "Full Metal Panic!")

Electronic systems of the "Mistral" is enough for control machine gun, autocannon and 6 missiles; a third generation has an artificial intelligence system as support

If you use auto targeting weapons, yes, you can have a bunch of them installed and still can pilot it.

But economically you lose a lot of weapons when 1 unit gets taken out.

You probably will do better with a less powerful AS(since it does not have to carry that much weight and thus can also use a lighter frame) and a bunch of cheap weapon carrying UMV that is remote controlled by the AS.

[Seto Kaiba]

The hell is this topic even about?

Posts #1 and #3: How do you optimize a mecha's weapons loadout?
Post #9: No no no, can't you read? I asked "Which is better in FMP!, Mistral (limbed vehicle) or Savage (humanoid mecha)?".
Remainder of TC's posts: Vain attempts to argue that the Mistral isn't a hulking piece of crap. When every one of those attempts fails, endlessly (and falsely) nitpicks irrelevant details.

Put bluntly, this topic appears to be (or at least degenerated into) -Mit- not liking the answer to his original question about the optimal approach to equipping an Arm Slave in Full Metal Panic!.

His view was apparently that a "walking tank" like the French C3-5 Mistral II loaded down with a large variety of long-range firepower should be superior to a "high-mobility mechanized infantry" unit which carries less weaponry. Of course, anyone who had read Full Metal Panic! or watched the anime adaptation of same already knew that the high-mobility infantry substitute was the superior design in the official setting.

There was a similar trajectory in his last few threads about Eureka Seven and Macross.

So, uh, I'll just ask it again: What's the point of this topic? Do you at least acknowledge that the Mistral is a piece of crap and that its type of design (limbed vehicle) was completely abandoned by the 3rd generation of AS, providing a clear in-universe answer to your "original" question?

Well... it wasn't completely abandoned within the greater scope of all FMP! media (incl. spinoffs and other non-canon works), but it IS a design touch distinct and exclusive to one manufacturer of AS technology: France's Groupement des Industries de l'Armée de Terre (Army Industries Group, or GIAT for short, a real-world company owned by the French government, known as Nexter Systems as of 2006). Only GIAT's Arcenciel (lit. "Rainbow") preserves that styling in the 3rd Generation, but that only exists in a post-timeskip spinoff title.

What if AS from the beginning designed for the use of heavy weapons?

If you design a unit that uses heavy weapons, the whole frame needs to withstand the recoil(I see that the smooth bore gun is not a recoiless weapon)
With the same power output, but a heavier frame(including all supporting structures and joints, etc.) you simply move slower, thus less suitable for combat, even when you use a weaker weapon.
You can give it a more powerful power source, but then the question will be "Why don't you give it to a lighter model?"

Pretty much the school of thought that ultimately arrived at the ARX-8 after the loss of the Arbalest... "We want to give it more firepower, but we can't afford the increase in weight to reinforce the frame, and we can't afford the increase in power requirements for the increased mass, so let's cheat on this through the application of a lambda driver"... and thus the ARX-8 and its demolition gun came to be.

[ShadowCell]

i am not hip to all the Full Metal Panic! minutiae y'all are throwing around here but

-Mit-, we could avoid threads like this in the future if you would please be very clear at the outset what it is you're asking and do a little Googling on stuff before you talk about it.

[-Mit-]

The hell is this topic even about?

It seems, that the eight-meter AS armed with a forty-millimeter high-velocity gun and a huge knife should be, due to unknown laws of logic, better than the same AS armed with autocannon and anti-tank missiles, or seventy-six millimeter recoilless gun...

Posts #1 and #3: How do you optimize a mecha's weapons loadout?
Post #9: No no no, can't you read? I asked "Which is better in FMP!, Mistral (limbed vehicle) or Savage (humanoid mecha)?".

1) Actually, for example AS, from "FMP!", question was : "So which approach is more efficient and promising? Specialization in a particular type of weapons and certain tactical role? or Versatility?"

2) We do not compared the models "Savage" and "Mistral" themselves, but their weapons as illustrations of different approaches...

Face it, -Mit-, the Mistral is a barely-mobile pile of junk.

So... let me get this straight. In this exchange, you start off by arguing that the Mistral isn't a piece of junk compared to its contemporaries because nobody would buy or use it if it weren't at least comparable to its contemporaries.

And there is. From the sources available to me (links to which I quoted) that: "While it looks like slow and bulky, its mobility, armour defence and electronics are actually better than Savage, and its low price tag (from a western design anyway) leads to good sales around the world (even to unstable countries), only bested by Savage and M6 series."

Then, when it's pointed out that the groups/nations that actually used it didn't have the funds or alliances to acquire literally any other contemporary AS,

Republic Balik was so "poor beggar / miserable rogue / penniless proletarian / spiritless pauper", she could afford to buy modern a famous French military equipment (even "AMX-56 Leclerc", one of the most expensive tanks in the world), including AS and antiaircraft missiles capable of shooting down attack helicopters equipped with "ECS" ...

Mutually exclusive clauses, among other things ...

Is it that France wouldn't produce it in the first place if they didn't plan on using it? If so, then like everything else you've posted, it was poorly articulated.

Well, I'm sorry, after all, English is not my native language, but thanks for the formulation

It really just looks like you're trying to nitpick and chip away at Seto Kaiba's credibility with random non sequiturs.

The problem is that "Seto Kaiba's credibility", regarding a dispute about the AS, was not backed by any reference to a specific source. Moreover, his allegations of "FMP!" in general, contrary to the quotations of the "novel" and replicas of anime characters, so I do not trust him ...

Anyway, you assert that American F-16s and M1 Abrams aren't exported or leased to other nations, then post blatantly false statements that are easily refuted with basic research; for example, typing "Greece M1A1" into Google quickly produces results describing America's interest in selling 400 M1A1s to Greece in 2012 and Greece's interest in buying 90 of them in 2015 (the next closest thing to Greece buying M1A1s, easily establishing the groundwork of American-European modern MBT sales).

As if to say, "Greece interest in buying "M1A1" and "Potential operators" is not equivalent to the concept "put into service"

As for the "F-16", it really comes in NATO countries, rather in those where there is no own production facilities. France, England, Italy, Germany, Sweden are using their model aircraft (three of them AS produce, in an alternate world "FMP!")

So, uh, I'll just ask it again: What's the point of this topic? Do you at least acknowledge that the Mistral is a piece of crap and that its type of design (limbed vehicle) was completely abandoned by the 3rd generation of AS, providing a clear in-universe answer to your "original" question?

In fact, this concept was further developed in the form of a third / or second and a half generation French AS "Arcenciel" ( "Rainbow"), perfectly suited for ambushes and tactics of "hit-and-retreat"...

And again, it's not about a specific model, but the concept of "powerful weapons" ...

Japanese "Type-96" Following this idea is equipped with 76mm (?) Recoilless rifles, the French "Mistral" arming multipurpose missiles ...
http://fullmetalpanic.wikia.com/wiki/Fi ... iginal.jpg
http://fullmetalpanic.wikia.com/wiki/Fi ... czAeCE.jpg

Even such "anthropomorphic" the AS, as "Savages" using huge "Panzerfaust" ... Hell, even "M9" forced use "FGM-148 the Javelin" and 57mm "sniper gun"
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 989229.jpg

but so far all it's served to accomplish is to make you look like a rude fool.

Read carefully, and think about read, otherwise I'll have to give you back this boorish statement...

[-Mit-]

Giving a more FMP world economical sample of the 2nd gen AS:(with estimations from the 3rd gen M9 costing around a few dozen million USD, but real world cost scale according to my engineering background)
A) machine gun AS(without ability to use heavy arms): around $8~10mil.
B) heavy weaponery AS(same power source as above, improved frame): around $12~15mil.
C) multipurpose AS(better power source and frame, performance wise=A when using machine gun): around $20~25mil.

For every $25mil I pay, I'd rather have A+B than just a C.

That is, do you suggest to use mixed groups of several "light" and one "heavy" AS? Interestingly, the Japanese in the incident with the "Behemoth" used a similar scheme...

But economically you lose a lot of weapons when 1 unit gets taken out.

The same is true, but, for example, "sniper model" M9 in the first episode, "the TSR" used a 40mm auto-cannon for combat, after leaving his sniper position ...

[Kuruni]

First. Our message board have edit function, use it. I'm pretty sure nobody miss anything between that 6 minutes.

Second. If you already have the answer to your own question and simply refuse to accept otherwise, then there's no point to ask at all.

[Areku]

"So which approach is more efficient and promising? Specialization in a particular type of weapons and certain tactical role? or Versatility?"

And again, it's not about a specific model, but the concept of "powerful weapons" ...

(Taken from post #9) So which approach would be more effective? Mechanized imitation soldier or armored vehicles with manipulators?

So if it's not about specific models, why did you focus on nitpicking irrelevant details about the clearly-under-performing Mistral rather than discussing weapons and design philosophy? Also, your questions are asking very different things; the first is broadly about specialization vs versatility in mecha weaponry, the second seems to be asking about the utility of "heavy" weapons on mechs, and the third clearly asking about the mecha themselves (humanoid vs vehicle with limbs).

Assuming you're only interested in the FMP! universe (something you again neglected to mention in your questions), maybe you should make your question more specific, give it some context. For example, are you creating some kind of fan-design Arm Slave, maybe for a fanfic or something? If so, who will be using it, in what period of time, what factions and enemy targets will it likely be engaging, and is it equipped with exotic systems such as a Lambda Driver? Please bear in mind that you're talking about a fictional universe that constantly has literal psychics introducing revolutionary technology that only they understand, including Arms Slaves themselves as well as the Lambda Driver (the latter explicitly ignores the laws of physics). Without clarifying the who, when, where, and what (enemy targets, applicable Black Technology), Brave Fencer Kirby's first post is about as good an answer as you can possibly expect.

Well, I'm sorry, after all, English is not my native language, but thanks for the formulation

Read carefully, and think about read, otherwise I'll have to give you back this boorish statement...

Please try to understand where other posters are coming from. You've just admitted (or at least implied) that you don't place much confidence in your ability to speak English, so you should be very cautious about accusing others of failing to read; you should recognize that it's far more likely that you haven't made yourself clear than a native English speaker has just forgotten how to read. I'm not a native Japanese speaker, and when I failed to get my point across in Japan, I did not assume that I was on the "right" side of the confusion. Also, when you're having trouble crossing a language barrier, you should make your efforts shorter, not longer. Longer messages make it more likely that you'll say something contradictory, making it even more difficult to get your point across.

I've been using constructive criticism to help you get your point across and get your actual questions answered. However, some of your responses in this topic have been rude, and I'm afraid that some of my frustration with that has shown through in my posts. I just wish you'd put as much effort into concisely asking your questions (and responding politely to their answers) as you put into finding the word "boorish" despite your limited English. My "boorish" statement was actually an expression of how your responses make you appear to others; if you don't like it, you should strive to correct it by changing your behavior and the way you present yourself and your questions and ideas, rather than supporting my comment by telling me to read carefully.

[Seto Kaiba]

It seems, that the eight-meter AS armed with a forty-millimeter high-velocity gun and a huge knife should be, due to unknown laws of logic, better than the same AS armed with autocannon and anti-tank missiles, or seventy-six millimeter recoilless gun...

Really? You don't see the logic? I'd think it would be quite clear from your own quotation out of Full Metal Panic! Vol.12: Approaching Nick of Time.

Mobility is the most important factor in an Arm Slave's survivability. The black technology which made Arm Slaves possible didn't include super-alloy armor, so Arm Slaves are designed with the emphasis on high-mobility operation so that they can keep moving to avoid being hit. Equipping high-caliber machine guns instead of artillery cannons keeps the overall weight of the unit down, and leaves room for it to carry other weapons without significantly degrading its agility. Making that artillery cannon recoilless is going to take the weight of the weapon down, but you also lose some of the increased stopping power that comes with the larger round. The larger weapon is a good deal bigger and less versatile, and harder to employ in maneuver warfare.

This is all fairly straightforward.

Face it, -Mit-, the Mistral is a barely-mobile pile of junk.

So... let me get this straight. In this exchange, you start off by arguing that the Mistral isn't a piece of junk compared to its contemporaries because nobody would buy or use it if it weren't at least comparable to its contemporaries.

And there is. From the sources available to me (links to which I quoted) that: "While it looks like slow and bulky, its mobility, armour defence and electronics are actually better than Savage, and its low price tag (from a western design anyway) leads to good sales around the world (even to unstable countries), only bested by Savage and M6 series."

The problem with this contention is that nobody has been able to corroborate the allegations that the Mistral II's mobility is good. We know, from the DVD liner notes and official art books that it has better than average armor for its generation and that, despite its simple electronics, it has a fire control system that compares favorably to the export "monkey model" version of the Rk-92, but based on the printed specs its land speed is the slowest in its generation (either 15% or 37% slower than the Rk-92, or 18% slower than a M6), its jump height is on the low end of average, physical agility is said to be lower than any of its competitors, and its maximum operating time's 15% less than its competing designs (the Rk-92 and M6).

Republic Balik was so "poor beggar / miserable rogue / penniless proletarian / spiritless pauper", she could afford to buy modern a famous French military equipment (even "AMX-56 Leclerc", one of the most expensive tanks in the world), including AS and antiaircraft missiles capable of shooting down attack helicopters equipped with "ECS" ...

Mutually exclusive clauses, among other things ...

Tanks are explicitly said to be cheaper than Arm Slaves, but it's worth remembering that the Balic Republic was receiving advanced weapons from Amalgam, specifically because they anticipated an armed intervention from MITHRIL.

The problem is that "Seto Kaiba's credibility", regarding a dispute about the AS, was not backed by any reference to a specific source. Moreover, his allegations of "FMP!" in general, contrary to the quotations of the "novel" and replicas of anime characters, so I do not trust him ...

The only problem here is that you're not even checking that the material you're quoting from is 1. canon, 2. accurate, or 3. actually in support of your argument.

We're just repeating your last few threads, where you weren't so much asking a question as trying to find someone to validate your opinion even if it flew in the face of the official material. You're arguing that the Mistral II has great maneuverability, but the official stats, the liner notes, the art books, and the novels themselves disagree with you and paint the Mistral II as a junker compared to its competition.

As if to say, "Greece interest in buying "M1A1" and "Potential operators" is not equivalent to the concept "put into service"

Of course, that's cherrypicking in an effort to look like you had a valid point when you didn't... as there are indeed a half-dozen NATO allies using the M1, which you insisted was something used by the US alone.

Similarly, you're now trying to dismiss the fact that you got caught in a whopper of an error when you claimed that no NATO allies use the F-16 (when quite a number of them do).

Your question was answered in the second or third post, everything since has been an effort to refuse the answer.