The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by MayflyOfSpace » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:39 am

That's probably so.

That being said, I would hate to see the Ryusei-go IV (sorry, the Flauros) get rebuilt by anyone. It was pretty well wrecked in the first place, but also I doubt that any faction particularly has the need (Arianrhod Fleet) or time (Tekkadan/McGillis) to do it. Plus I'm not sure if there's all that much time in the last few episodes to introduce another Gundam frame anyways.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by E08 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:46 am

AmuroNT1 has the main points down, but here's the scans for those interested: 1, 2

For the 'Gundam Frame Section', I feel that the word 'modified' is more suitable than 'repair' to relay the meaning of the Japanese text. Also, nice to know more about McGillis' goal.
domino wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:13 am
MayflyOfSpace wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:34 am
It's kind of odd that the manual repeatedly mentions that the swords are the only armament, yet the manual also mentions an electromagnetic cannon in each wing.
Perhaps because those cannons are useless without Dainsleif rounds i.e. they're probably rail guns without any standard ammo.

It would be interesting if either Vidar/Bael (or Flaurios-remake?) actually use Dainsleif rounds in this series.
One, nowhere in the manual does it say the swords are the only armament... The 'close combat' section describes the swords as the 'major armament', that is to say there are other minor armament. The manual only noted that the swords are the perfect weapon for Agnika.

Two, for a electromagnetic cannon/railgun to be a Dainsleif, it must have the right mechanism to fire the Dainsleif projectile. This is noted in the Gundam Flauros' model kit manual. We currently have no idea if Bael's electromagnetic cannons have this mechanism.

For other info, firstly, here's the scan of the Option set 9: 1. The blurb about Barbatos Lupus Rex is interesting. Wonder if that is in-story or just a rejected concept in real life?

Secondly, this twit from Kanetake Ebikawa confirms that the Reginlaze Julia's Julian Sword is capable of spinning like a drill. This is depicted in ep45 when the sword (in whip mode I think) hits Barbatos Lupus Rex's chest.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by SonicSP » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:50 pm

So Bael's swords are just made of the normal "rare MS Frame" material then?

Isn't that different that Grimgerde's? Since that one was supposed to be rare lost technology material with even better cutting power. I think it was noted there wasn't enough to make one MS Frame from. I assumed they was the same swords since they look pretty similar with the unique gold color visual.

Sure the rare alloy MS Frame is likely expensive and hard to make but it's fairly common in the show with Barbatos' mace, Kimaris Vidar's sword, Kimaris' disks, Deinsleif KEP ammo, and so on. And Gjallahorn keeps making new mobile suits without trouble, so it's not the same lost technology stuff of Grimgerde's blades.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by MayflyOfSpace » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:17 pm

E08 wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:46 am
One, nowhere in the manual does it say the swords are the only armament... The 'close combat' section describes the swords as the 'major armament', that is to say there are other minor armament. The manual only noted that the swords are the perfect weapon for Agnika.
Oh wow, I feel kind of dumb now. To be fair, it was like 5am when I read these scans and made that post. I think I somehow misrepresented the "no other weapon was needed to display the strength of Agnika Keiru" bit. My bad.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Calubin_175 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:18 pm

Let's discuss where this rare alloy mentioned in the manual is found.

The rare alloy was mentioned to be reserved for making MS frames. We assume that Galljarhorn has ample access to them while other factions, who salvage mobile suit frames on the battlefield, have limited access to them.

The already sturdy MS frames made of rare alloy are further protected with nanolaminated armor, thus rendering rounds from firearms weak against them. But could rounds damage MS frames that are unprotected? Regardless of which, the protection from the armor left only melee weapons to be effective in MS combat, especially heavy striking and smashing weapons, where as cutting weapons are rarer as they require more skill and technique to be effective. The target areas are usually the cockpit as it is the must efficient way of neutralising an MS and leaves the scraps to be salvaged and reused.

According to Mechanics and World, the rare alloy is also used to make melee weapons, but only a number of weapon profiles specially mention the rare alloy. Should we assume that all weapons, including the Graze battle axe is made of the same alloy? Maybe, maybe not.

Only a number of weapons have mentioned the rare alloy: Barbatos mace, Kimaris disks(some mixture), Grimgerde Swords, Hasmal wire blade, Barbatos new katana, Julian Swords, Kimaris Vidar katana, Bael Swords, rare alloy shells, KEP rounds and Dainsleif rounds.

So these weapons must have a higher status than the rest, distinguished from the rest by their rare alloy construction.

The Graze battle sword(ground type) is said to be more of a smashing weapon rather than a cutting weapon(see Break Blade regular sword vs katana). The Graze Ritter sword is probably more of a cutting weapon but requires more skill to use it. Therefore, we see McGliss's crew using them more effectively than Carta's crew. Furthermore, it is also used for ceremonial purposes. Other than that and Barbatos' first katana, the majority of cutting swords are made of the rare alloy.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by amagee2100 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:45 pm

The Grimgerde model kit notes that the special material it uses is harder than that of a Gundam frame and that there is not enough for an entire mobile suit frame. Everyone seems to be discussing that yellow material as the same as that of a Gundam frame which is getting confusing. Gundam frame material can still be made but they are no longer able to recreate that yellow metal which is why its used so sparingly.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by SonicSP » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:30 am

amagee2100 wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:45 pm
Everyone seems to be discussing that yellow material as the same as that of a Gundam frame which is getting confusing. Gundam frame material can still be made but they are no longer able to recreate that yellow metal which is why its used so sparingly.
Yes but that's exactly what the Bael manual is saying under the Bael's Swords section. It said that Bael's yellow swords are made out of the same "rare material used to make mobile suit frames".

That's the same phrase used to describe the material that is used to make things like Barbatos' mace, Deinsleif bullets, Kimaris' disks, etc. It's not really lost technology special.

This is why it's a point of discussion, it's a surprising revelation. Before that we assumed it was the same lost technology material used to make Grimgerde's swords but evidently that is not the case.

So it seems that the yellow material on Grimgerde's sword is not the same as with Bael's sword.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Grimgerde's blade being made out of the lost technology came from a tweet of the staff as opposed to a manual as I recall. The Grimgerde Blade section of the two Grimgerde manuals only mentioned the blades can be stored in shield. This might put it on more shaky ground, however since there is no direct contradiction due to the Bael's swords being different, it might still stand.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by E08 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:05 am

Calubin_175 wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:18 pm
Let's discuss where this rare alloy mentioned in the manual is found.
Only a number of weapons have mentioned the rare alloy: Barbatos mace, Kimaris disks(some mixture), Grimgerde Swords, Hasmal wire blade, Barbatos new katana, Julian Swords, Kimaris Vidar katana, Bael Swords, rare alloy shells, KEP rounds and Dainsleif rounds.

So these weapons must have a higher status than the rest, distinguished from the rest by their rare alloy construction.
Just want to clarify, there are at least three types of rare/special alloy/metal if I remember correctly. First, there is the rare alloy/metal used in the MS frame, which is also used in Barbatos mace, Kimaris disks, Barbatos new katana, Kimaris Vidar katana and special KEP bullet, Bael Swords and the Dainsleif rounds. Then, there is the rare yellow metal used in Grimgerde swords and the Reginlaze Julia's Julian Swords. Finally, there is the special alloy in the Hashmal's super hard wire blade, which has some unique property relating to viscosity and electrical conductivity.
Calubin_175 wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:18 pm
The Graze battle sword(ground type) is said to be more of a smashing weapon rather than a cutting weapon(see Break Blade regular sword vs katana). The Graze Ritter sword is probably more of a cutting weapon but requires more skill to use it. Therefore, we see McGliss's crew using them more effectively than Carta's crew. Furthermore, it is also used for ceremonial purposes. Other than that and Barbatos' first katana, the majority of cutting swords are made of the rare alloy.
Calubin_175, just wondering where did you get that the Graze's battle blade is more of a smashing weapon than a cutting weapon? The same for the Graze Ritter's sword being more of a cutting weapon.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by SonicSP » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:24 am

They seriously need to give these materials names. There's only so many different unnamed "rare materials" you can have in a single Gundam series without being confusing.

Also, do we have any idea what Barbatos Rex's claws are made off? Same lost technology stuff as Grimgerde or just not elaborated upon?

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by SonicSP » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:35 am

E08 wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:05 am
Then, there is the rare yellow metal used in Grimgerde swords and the Reginlaze Julia's Julian Swords.
Speaking of which, do we have any evidence or statement that the metal used in the Julian Swords and Grimgerde Blades are the same type?

When the Graze Julia manual came out, it seems pretty obvious that it would be the case but I think the Bael manual muddied things and makes it less of a certainty.

As mentioned, the Bael blades are made out of the "ordinary" rare metal used in MS Frames despite looking almost exactly the same as Grimgerde's blades.

Because from what I can tell from the English section of HG Julia, all it says that it's made from a rare metal that is made via a special technique. While the usual signature "used in MS Frame part" is missing, the description of it being a "rare metal" without further elaboration still leaves it a possibility. There is no further elaboration on the Japanese text either.

Our only clue before would be the color which makes us believe it's the same as Grimgerde's, but Bael's swords now give us a precedent that the yellow tint is just a color and not necessarily a confirmation that the lost technology material is being used.

So while we have yet to see the "lost technology material" being used in a blade that is not yellow, the fact that other materials can be made to look exactly
like it means that the color cannot be used as a confirmation anymore. Was it even yellow to begin with or just so happened to the two examples were like that?

This doesn't mean that it isn't using the lost technology material, just that I don't think we can say that it uses it with 100% certainty. Unless it's stated somewhere else other than the manual.

The only pro-lost technology material argument I can think off is that the line "same material used in MS Frame" is not used and the line "forged using special technique" has never been used in regards to the MS Frame material. While that may be a hint of sorts it's far from a confirmation since it's possible that the MS Frame material is made that way.

This is also an extension of my critique earlier of the series using the term "rare material" on a few different materials without giving them actual names. They could also gone with "Bael yellow swords = made of yellow lost technology material " in the writing just to simplify things and would be a smarter decision.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Calubin_175 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:16 am

The yellow metal thing and Julian swords yellow tip(and wire) being the same is from Ebikawa's tweet. The Bael ones mentioned in the HG manual might as well be implicitly the same grade as it is also yellow, and this MS frame rare alloy could refer to both the gray and yellow grades. We will just leave the rest of the gray rare alloy weapons as regular rare alloy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KANETAKE/sta ... 4699159552

I just assumed that the Knight Blade is more for cutting, but upon closer inspection, it looks to be smashing and striking too. Mechanics and World did have a small description for H-02 Battle Blade being for smashing rather than cutting.

Speaking of KEP, I think the Hasmal's kinetic launchers are similar, and hence they are rare alloy as well. I don't think the Plumes have Ahab Reactors nor strong material.

Astaroth Origin's nanolaminated sword works the same way as GN Blades: sharpened by Ahab waves to cut armor. It also reminds me of the coated sword of the Blue Frame Second L that could penetrate barriers.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by E08 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:48 am

Calubin_175 wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:16 am
The yellow metal thing and Julian swords yellow tip(and wire) being the same is from Ebikawa's tweet. The Bael ones mentioned in the HG manual might as well be implicitly the same grade as it is also yellow, and this MS frame rare alloy could refer to both the gray and yellow grades. We will just leave the rest of the gray rare alloy weapons as regular rare alloy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KANETAKE/sta ... 4699159552
Well, the rare metal used in Grimgerde's sword and Julian sword are described as being insufficient for even a single MS frame, while the rare metal for Bael swords are said to be used in MS frame, so they are likely to be different rare metal.
Calubin_175 wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:16 am
I just assumed that the Knight Blade is more for cutting, but upon closer inspection, it looks to be smashing and striking too. Mechanics and World did have a small description for H-02 Battle Blade being for smashing rather than cutting.

Speaking of KEP, I think the Hasmal's kinetic launchers are similar, and hence they are rare alloy as well. I don't think the Plumes have Ahab Reactors nor strong material.
Ah, I see. As for Hashmal's kinetic launchers, I don't think we can so sure, best to leave it in the grey area. It did used it against julieta's Reginlaze but I don't recall if it did any significant damage. The Plumas are said to be powered by the microwave energy from the hashmal, so yeah, they most likely have no Ahab Reactors.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by amagee2100 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:21 am

For some of the people here who can read and write Japanese: is it possible for someone to ask Ebikawa the question about the Bael's swords? If no one else wants to, I'll try myself but I'm thinking someone writing in Japanese would be better. I mean, the worst that can happen is you get no response and, at best, we get some clarification.

Also, I guess, at this point, the writing seems to indicate that the Bael's swords are something different but I'm still leaning towards them being the same as the Grimgerde Swords. They may be different weapons but, if you look at them side-by-side, you'll see that both swords have the same blade-shape and hilt-to-blade attachment mechanism. Compounding that, I can't see why a mass-produced suit would get a superior weapon. Same, I can imagine; different, not so much.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Calubin_175 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:53 pm

Neither Grimgerde and Julia are mass produced, but the lost technology Gundam Frames still have a higher status than the top of the line one-off machines that could be produced at present time.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:07 pm

Well, don't forget that apparently only 26 of the original 72 Gundam Frames still exist at this point. Even if they aren't whole, some of their parts could be around, getting used by other machines.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by yazi88 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:13 pm

Julia is a prototype only at this moment, while the Grimgerde was part of the Valkyria Frame which seems like a limited production, but we do not know how many units were made, and that also includes the Helmwige model which inspired the Helmwige Reincar.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Arsarcana » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:34 am

One thing that makes me wonder if the description of Bael's swords was a typo (aside from the only other yellow blades we've seen being called out as a different kind of rare metal than that found in MS frames) is that the swords are supposed to be 'unbreakable'. Which doesn't completely match MS frame material, which is really sturdy but not indestrutible.
AmuroNT1 wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:07 pm
Well, don't forget that apparently only 26 of the original 72 Gundam Frames still exist at this point. Even if they aren't whole, some of their parts could be around, getting used by other machines.
This indeed appears to be the case, given that the only part of the Vual's armor that seems to be original (maybe) is its head, with most everything else originally belonging to the Astaroth.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by amagee2100 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:00 am

Arsarcana wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:34 am
One thing that makes me wonder if the description of Bael's swords was a typo (aside from the only other yellow blades we've seen being called out as a different kind of rare metal than that found in MS frames) is that the swords are supposed to be 'unbreakable'. Which doesn't completely match MS frame material, which is really sturdy but not indestrutible.
This is something that bothers me as well. If it's just the same rare metal used in MS frames, it doesn't make any sense as we see those things getting bent, broken, and sliced through all the time in IBO.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by SonicSP » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:15 am

While an error is possible, keep in mind that the manual never mentioned that the swords are unbreakable because it's made out of the MS Frame rare material. Those two things are mentioned in separate sections. It's always possible that it's unbreakable because of its engineering or creation method of the sword.

One thing to keep in mind that mobile suit frames are also made to be able to be flexible and mobile, because they have to move and wield melee weapons. That means they have to be hard but also fairly flexible. They are also fairly complex machines with many things that has to be taken into account in their designs and tradeoffs made as a result.

By contrast, the melee weapons are not constrained by this because they're functions are purely damage dealing and hardness. They're also just simple designs without much complex machinery or parts to them to worry about and compensate for.

Remember that they are experimenting with various types of melee weapons during the Calamity Wars. Grimgerde's swords are made of super rare super strong metal and Aseteroth had the application of Ahab Particles on its surface to create a Gamma Nanolaminate Field. It's always quite possible that Bael's was an attempt to make unbreakable sword using the existing MS Frame materials.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk II

Post by Kuruni » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:38 am

Well, isn't Ahab reactor itself is completely immune to physical damage? That might has something to does wit Bael swords.
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