Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

[-Mit-]

In general, in many mecha-universes transforming robots can be found: "Eureka 7" - KLF, "Gundam Unicorn" - ReZEL and Lotto, "Macross Zero" - Phoenix and Octos and so on ...

However, the topic of "variational tanks" one of the main arguments against the idea was intolerable complexity of similar design; against transformable mobile armor "Zeta Series" is usually a high price ...

In principle, for any variable mecha you can find some or other problems T_T

Actually, the question is that is the - "under any circumstances" pros "of the transformer can outweigh their" cons "and make their use profitable enough?"

Perhaps intelligence and / or sabotage?

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[Kuruni]

Well, Transformers start as toy from several toylines such as Microman and Diaclone and mixed them together. So it's it's understsnadble that you question its rationality.

But if you're talking about tranformable mech in general, it's mostly depend on the context of the work. Usually it's allow the unit to operate in different function altogether. Yes, a transformable mech is more costy than a similar mech without transform function, but surely it's still cheaper than a similar mech without transform function AND an another similar jet.

[Areku]

There are a lot of reasons why a machine that is supposed to be a Jack-of-All-Trades (particularly if it transforms) is inferior to a more simplified and focused design. Cost, complexity, compromised capability when pitted against a focused design built with similar technology... Very big hurdles.

However, let's consider something about the environment that often crops up in fiction and in the real world: limited hangar space.

Let's use the Variable Fighters from Macross as an example. A non-transforming fighter made with the same technology would be superior to the VF in Fighter mode, and the same holds true for dedicated Gerwalks and Battroids. However, to implement these dedicated machines to the exclusion of the VF would mean that a carrier or fleet would have to consign itself to an inflexible, fixed quantity of each. In contrast, a carrier fully equipped with VFs has the flexibility of using it's full compliment at a given time, rather than only being able to use a portion of it to pursue a particular mission. While the VFs are qualitatively inferior to a dedicated design in any given role (or rather, any role where the ability to transform mid-mission is irrelevant, which is actually pretty uncommon), they make up for it by being able to throw ~3 times as many machines at a given mission.

[Kuruni]

And don't even get to super robot genre, which all modes are usually drastically different to another (AND excel in all of them).

[Mimeblade]

Gundam Seed had a more reasonable take on "transformation" in the form of Striker Packs.

By giving a suit a different Striker pack, or swapping them on the fly, you could give them different equipment loadouts.

As for something like Unicorn, I believe Psyco-frame tech was supposed to enhance the functional link between Newtype humans and machines (making a Gundam more human-like in terms of reactions, range of movement, speed, etc), there was basically no point for "stuffing away" additional thrusters if all they do is add weight to the frame only to be activated later once NT-D activated.

I could see having hidden weapons, like beam tonfa, being useful (if you think in terms of a switchblade up someone's sleeve), but I don't think Psyco-frame tech helped make the I-Field Shields any more effective than before. The Armed Armor DE was so heavy it had it's own booster... which really makes little sense for a shield, unless it was meant to increase an MS's mobility to compensate for all that dead weight (unused boosters, remember?).

RX-0 Unicorn was more about aesthetics and the romantic mystery behind Psychoframes I think.

And let's not forget that a Tank or a Plane with wheels far outstrips anything bipedal on multi-terrain.

The very argument behind bi-pedal mobile suits was that they were best suited for space, as I recall!

[Kuruni]

Gundam Seed had a more reasonable take on "transformation" in the form of Striker Packs.

Except that isn't transformation as much as using extra equipments (not to mention Gundam Mark II use similiar idea first).

And let's not forget that a Tank or a Plane with wheels far outstrips anything bipedal on multi-terrain.

Where do you get that? At least in two works that I can recall at this moment, Dougram and Steel Battalion, precisely develope walking mech because they can go where tank can't (and plane is even worse).

And that's true in reality to some degree too, as that's why they develope Big Dog and its bros, although it's quadruped instead of biped.

The Armed Armor DE was so heavy it had it's own booster... which really makes little sense for a shield

In universe, shield booster was around since Advance of Zeta (in reality, I think it's Sentinel). So that has nothing to does with the shield being heavy.

[MythSearcher]

In general, in many mecha-universes transforming robots can be found: "Eureka 7" - KLF, "Gundam Unicorn" - ReZEL and Lotto, "Macross Zero" - Phoenix and Octos and so on ...

However, the topic of "variational tanks" one of the main arguments against the idea was intolerable complexity of similar design; against transformable mobile armor "Zeta Series" is usually a high price ...

In principle, for any variable mecha you can find some or other problems T_T

Actually, the question is that is the - "under any circumstances" pros "of the transformer can outweigh their" cons "and make their use profitable enough?"

Perhaps intelligence and / or sabotage?

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Usually no.
Think about it, in real life, even the variable-swept wing on the F-14 is considered too much dead weight and not efficient.

A rationale in fictional world is that it is impossible to build a Jack-of-all-trade mecha without making it much more expensive, so they make it transformable to redistribute the specs.
For example, moving all the thrusters to one direction and change it from a manoeuvreable mode(usually MS) to a more acceleration/speed oriented mode(usually flyer)
The problem of this is that it shouldn't really do anything for the attack power and defense power(on the other hand, you can do this without transformation, just direct your power to the system you needed)
And the MS, in all sense, pretty much serves this very purpose of redistributing the thrusters, for space combat. It can pretty freely change the direction of its main thrusters(legs) to most directions, and smaller thrusters really don't give you much thrust and thus in real life can't really give you much manoeuvreability.

Where do you get that? At least in two works that I can recall at this moment, Dougram and Steel Battalion, precisely develope walking mech because they can go where tank can't (and plane is even worse).

And that's true in reality to some degree too, as that's why they develope Big Dog and its bros, although it's quadruped instead of biped.

The problem of that in real life is the inefficiency of legs.
A couple of fun facts dictate the uselessness of legged mechas:
1) Bipeds are actually more efficient than Quadrupeds, there are at least 2 situations where this is demonstrated, a chimpenzee in biped mode intake less oxygen than when it is in quadruped mode at the same speed(experimented on) and cockroachs use only their hind legs to run(biped and not hexped)
2) A biped with legs longer than 2m are so inefficient that they use around 5 times more power than wheeled/tracked machines with same weight, idealistically, at same speeds, meaning you can actually make them fly at much higher speed or at least hover with that much power, why biped then?

Terran issue might be a problem in smaller size(i.e. infantry) so the BigDog is pretty useful, but you don't really have a lot of places on Earth where a tracked machine cannot get into but a legged machine can and still fight well. Places with a really bad terran usually mean that they are not that useful in strategical terms(thus no one bothered to pave them or at least improve the situation), or not a good place to fight as ground units(high mountains). Bundled with 2 above, legged machines in a bad terran is simply sitting ducks against hover/flying machines with the same weight and power(thus similar price), which have no problem entering these terrans wthout compensation in the first place.

Granted, smaller bipeds like exoskeletons are useful since you can't really fit a human inside one without mutilating them. However, not even a 3m biped is efficient in real life within the atmosphere(can't get into most buildings due to size, armour not thick enough against even handheld weapons,etc.)

[Kuruni]

I must apologize, it's my fault to brought up the good olde Can O' Worms call "Mecha in Real Life". I'm very sorry about that, lets go back to fiction.

*SIGH* I think we should just use the most blunt answer then. Just like how mech make more flashy toy than tank, transformable mech mean more gimmick. More gimmick make cooler toy. Complexity mean excuse to make more expensive toy.

The end.

[azrael]

*SIGH* I think we should just use the most blunt answer then. Just like how mech make more flashy toy than tank, transformable mech mean more gimmick. More gimmick make cooler toy. Complexity mean excuse to make more expensive toy.

That's always been the answer.

[MrMarch]

In reality, transforming mecha are made because they are fun, entertaining and imaginative to young children. Hence, they sell. That's pretty much it

In-universe, one has to write such that the fiction is at least partially able to explain why the mecha were created and how they overcome the conventional reasons why they wouldn't work. Each franchsie in the "real robot" genre has different ways of doing that, some succeeding better than others (depending upon how you look at it).

In Macross, they have the impetus (fighting giants), the power (massive 650 MW engines), the science (OverTechnology) and obviously the engineering to make it all work. It's far fetched and silly, but no more so than the average Hollywood action film once you stop suspending disbelief.

A word on the "transforming tank" thing, it's not that there are arguements against it, its that there are better ways to achieve what a transforming tank does within the confines/context of the fictional rules of a given mecha franchise, as was the case in the many Macross discussions on the subject here and on the MW forums.

[Seto Kaiba]

Disregarding the obvious reason that transforming robots (or robots in general) don't work outside fiction...

In mecha anime, a transforming robot is almost always made such that each mode of its variable configuration allows it to operate in a different role on the battlefield or compensates for a major deficiency that could result from environmental or operational conditions. They're almost always depicted as being significantly more expensive than a regular robot or fighter because of all that extra mechanical complexity needed to make it transform.

For instance, the transformable mobile suits of the Gundam universe(s) originally adopted their transformation to an aircraft-like mode (Waverider) as a means of integrating the reentry capabilities of the waverider craft to eliminate the need to have a separate craft or a vulnerable ballute to reenter the Earth's atmopshere and allowed for the mobile suit to function as a high-maneuverability space fighter as well.

Macross's variable fighters went the same way... Fighter mode allowed the mecha to work just like a jet fighter and engage enemy aircraft, GERWALK mode let it operate as a highly agile attack helicopter-substitute, and Battroid mode let it function as an anti-giant combat robot that could be used for land and space warfare. Some space-use models did away with GERWALK, as there's no use for it in space, and one notably added a fourth mode (Gundroid) that optimized a Valkyrie for space dogfighting.

The LFOs/KLFs in Eureka Seven had their transformation integrated because it was part of what the archetypes supported, but the vehicle mode was pretty much entirely for storage or to travel when trapar levels were too low for ref board flight.

The reason we don't see transformable tanks very often, and why they're usually not presented as a credible combat unit is that a tank and a giant robot are basically built for the same purpose... attacking enemies on the ground. The transformation doesn't add value. When you talked about that in the context of the Macross universe here and on MacrossWorld, the point we kept on coming back to was that a transformable tank offered no tactical advantage over a regular destroid thanks to the way the Macross setting works.

[azrael]

For instance, the transformable mobile suits of the Gundam universe(s) originally adopted their transformation to an aircraft-like mode (Waverider) as a means of integrating the reentry capabilities of the waverider craft to eliminate the need to have a separate craft or a vulnerable ballute to reenter the Earth's atmopshere and allowed for the mobile suit to function as a high-maneuverability space fighter as well.
...

But but but, base jabbers make great decoys and missiles.

[Henyo]

Well, Transformers start as toy from several toylines such as Microman and Diaclone and mixed them together. So it's it's understsnadble that you question its rationality.

i also thought this thread was about the Transformers Franchise. on that regards, is it crazy to talk about the races' tech like we would in a real robot series?(I've been itching to create some you see.)

also, its to be more than meets than eye! XD

back to the transformations in general, i'd like to ask if any series has given an in depth in universe explanation to the transformation mechanic.(preferably in animated form.) on another note, have there been any transformable units made just because the design team like the concept. again in universe.
they'd be like Kamen Rider Gaim's Sengoku Ryouma. he added transformation phrases in the belts just for kicks see.

[-Mit-]

MrMarch and Seto Kaiba - you take me like some kind of criminal

In fact, this topic is the feasibility of the establishment and use of transformable robots under normal conditions, and a wide spread of conventional mecha and conventional military equipment...

In theory, it could play a role and the ability to operate in different environments, for example, but ... "Full Metal Panic!" clearly shows that, instead of developing transformer, sufficient system mounted modules

In my opinion, the role of such machines, with the greatest benefit can be is to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage operations ...

[azrael]

MrMarch and Seto Kaiba - you take me like some kind of criminal

Because we are trying to explain how it fits within a given franchise's universe; how it fits within a narrative.

In fact, this topic is the feasibility of the establishment and use of transformable robots under normal conditions, and a wide spread of conventional mecha and conventional military equipment...

Anything is feasible. But does it warrant any advantage over what is present in the current paradigm?

In theory, it could play a role and the ability to operate in different environments, for example, but ... "Full Metal Panic!" clearly shows that, instead of developing transformer, sufficient system mounted modules

But that's a modular system, not a transforming system in this context. A modular system augments the function of a device but I would interact with it in the same way. Transforming (in this context) completely alters how a one interacts with a device. A computer is a modular system because I can change modules like CPU, video cards, hard drives, etc. but it still does the same thing. The M4 SOPMOD carbine is a modular system. I can add or subtract modules to augment its capabilities. I can shoot straighter with a better barrel. I can see things farther out with a better scope. I can handle the weapon better with a foregrip or better stock. Strike Gundam, Windams, Daggers, Dagger L's and Zaku Warriors are modular systems since they can used different modules (Striker packs and Wizard packs respectively) to augment their capabilities. A Mobile Suit , in general, is a modular system since it can mount different weapons and different tools to augment how it performs a function. Transforming would be like a water bottle that converts into a plate and utensils (in this context). Both are used to consume food, but how I interact with a water bottle is different than how I interact with a plate and utensils. How one interacts with Zeta Gundam's Waverider mode is different than how one interacts with Zeta's Mobile Suit mode.

[Seto Kaiba]

In theory, it could play a role and the ability to operate in different environments, for example, but ... "Full Metal Panic!" clearly shows that, instead of developing transformer, sufficient system mounted modules

That's a modular design... not related to transformation.

In my opinion, the role of such machines, with the greatest benefit can be is to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage operations ...

There are few things in any fictional setting more conspicuous than a giant robot or large military vehicle... so the idea that a giant robot that turns into a large military vehicle would be useful for operations requiring stealth and an inconspicuous appearance like infiltration, sabotage, or really any kind of reconnaissance operations besides reconnaissance-in-force is just absurd.

Even settings where the mecha can literally turn invisible don't present giant robots as a viable or effective undercover operations platform.

(The one exception I can think of is in Mobile Fighter G Gundam, where the Nether Gundam had a completely nonsensical transformation that disguised it as a windmill.)

[Areku]

(The one exception I can think of is in Mobile Fighter G Gundam, where the Nether Gundam had a completely nonsensical transformation that disguised it as a windmill.)

Which was a brilliant disguise. Who wants to be the jerk that declares a windmill is the enemy, let alone attack it? Nobody! We've been conditioned to believe that suspecting and attacking a windmill is the ultimate manifestation of insanity and senility. It's the perfect cover.

[Dark Duel]

Even settings where the mecha can literally turn invisible don't present giant robots as a viable or effective undercover operations platform.

The GAT-X207 Blitz Gundam would like a word with you on the viability of optical camouflage equipped to mobile suits for stealth/special ops purposes.
Granted, in my experience that seems to be the exception rather than the rule, and the Blitz itself was not without disadvantages of its own.

That being said, I do think that there are certain things that giant robot killing machines are good for, and things they're not good for. Stealth is one of them - especially in space, even though such a thing has been depicted - as in the example I mentioned above - but usually with some sort of Applied Phlebotinum in place to hand-wave the glaringly obvious flaws in attempting such a place. The Blitz doinf it was cool and all, but there are a lot of unanswered questions about how that tech works, which irritates me. Anyway, that's a wholly separate discussion from the main topic at hand, which is the feasibility of VMS.

I'll get back to that after I've had some more time to think about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

(The one exception I can think of is in Mobile Fighter G Gundam, where the Nether Gundam had a completely nonsensical transformation that disguised it as a windmill.)

Which was a brilliant disguise. Who wants to be the jerk that declares a windmill is the enemy, let alone attack it? Nobody! We've been conditioned to believe that suspecting and attacking a windmill is the ultimate manifestation of insanity and senility. It's the perfect cover.

True... it was a bit of inspired skullduggery on Neo Holland's part, in that it allowed their totally lame Gundam Fighter to make it to the finals of the 13th Gundam Fight without having to fight a single enemy. It's not really what you'd call a viable military option, but it was undeniably very effective for avoiding combat in a trial-by-combat situation.

Even settings where the mecha can literally turn invisible don't present giant robots as a viable or effective undercover operations platform.

The GAT-X207 Blitz Gundam would like a word with you on the viability of optical camouflage equipped to mobile suits for stealth/special ops purposes.
Granted, in my experience that seems to be the exception rather than the rule, and the Blitz itself was not without disadvantages of its own.

Eh... I wouldn't say the mirage colloid system is all that useful for stealth operations. It's good at battlefield misdirection, but it doesn't stop the mobile suit from making a hell of a lot of noise and shaking the ground by walking. People are gonna notice the localized earthquake caused by 73.5 tonnes of robot stomping around, and the electromagnetic field holding the stealth effect together is going to produce a noticeable effect in civilian environs. (Also, wasn't the field dispersed by being exposed to water?)

Usually optical camo systems like that are inevitably foiled by the fact that they don't stop a giant robot from being big and having significant mass... troops on foot will infiltrate with much less risk of detection because they can't accidentally crush a car, run into a road sign, be exposed by a rain storm, or create detectable earthquakes by walking.

[Kuruni]

(The one exception I can think of is in Mobile Fighter G Gundam, where the Nether Gundam had a completely nonsensical transformation that disguised it as a windmill.)

Which was a brilliant disguise. Who wants to be the jerk that declares a windmill is the enemy, let alone attack it? Nobody! We've been conditioned to believe that suspecting and attacking a windmill is the ultimate manifestation of insanity and senility. It's the perfect cover.

If only Neo Spain use Quixote Gundam instead of Matador Gundam...