Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

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MrMarch
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:MrMarch and Seto Kaiba - you take me like some kind of criminal :(
Now, now. Be good to me. I'm such a nice boy. My exes always say so :)

Besides, I still think we should find someone to draw a Macross-style transforming tank to make you happy. We've spent about the same amount of time and effort talking about it, lol
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Areku
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

MrMarch wrote:Now, now. Be good to me. I'm such a nice boy. My exes always say so :)

Besides, I still think we should find someone to draw a Macross-style transforming tank to make you happy. We've spent about the same amount of time and effort talking about it, lol
And then a transforming submarine. And then a Fighter/Gerwalk/Battroid/Tank/Submarine/Windmill. The ultimate weapon.
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azrael
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Just wondering, has the OP looked at the ATAC-01-SCA Spartas from Southern Cross? A variable tank without tank treads or a "tank" mode that looks like a tank (the unprotected pilot practically screams shoot here).
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MrMarch
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Areku wrote:
MrMarch wrote:Now, now. Be good to me. I'm such a nice boy. My exes always say so :)

Besides, I still think we should find someone to draw a Macross-style transforming tank to make you happy. We've spent about the same amount of time and effort talking about it, lol
And then a transforming submarine. And then a Fighter/Gerwalk/Battroid/Tank/Submarine/Windmill. The ultimate weapon.
There is a transforming submarine in Macross:
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrosszero/octos.htm

Unfortunately, the Fighter/Gerwalk/Battroid/Tank/Submarine/Windmill doesn't exist, although I'm not ashamed to admit that "Windmill" part is giving me a chubby :)
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

azrael wrote:Just wondering, has the OP looked at the ATAC-01-SCA Spartas from Southern Cross? A variable tank without tank treads or a "tank" mode that looks like a tank (the unprotected pilot practically screams shoot here).
From his thread on MacrossWorld he's apparently familiar with the Robotech version... which is a fairly extreme case of a series presenting a transformable tank/robot and then explicitly establishing that it was a terrible idea and abandoning it.

(Robotech's official explanation for the many obvious design flaws in the mecha from Southern Cross was, specifically, that all but the Auroran were technologically-inferior equipment that had either been developed with the extremely limited resources left behind after all the competent people went into space and/or equipment the actual military had deemed unsuitable for frontline use and palmed off on the caretaker force composed entirely of troops who'd washed out of the real military's recruitment program.)
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Kuruni
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Bah! Just pick Getter Robo, or any of its successors/followers. Why bother with tank/sub/fighter when you can just transform into another mech that beat them in that function anyway? (and if you really love tank, mind you that Getter-3 is more or elss Guntank's missing daddy)
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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Kuruni wrote:
Areku wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:(The one exception I can think of is in Mobile Fighter G Gundam, where the Nether Gundam had a completely nonsensical transformation that disguised it as a windmill.)
Which was a brilliant disguise. Who wants to be the jerk that declares a windmill is the enemy, let alone attack it? Nobody! We've been conditioned to believe that suspecting and attacking a windmill is the ultimate manifestation of insanity and senility. It's the perfect cover.
If only Neo Spain use Quixote Gundam instead of Matador Gundam...
the explation we got for it's alt-mode was that Neo Holland was at an lower tech level and there gundam fighter was not very skilled so to get the unit through the finals it was given an common structure alt mode for Holland and sat there for 11 months to make it to finals. it was apperently an MP model with an even more wacky flight mode the legs retract and the windmill veins pop off and dock to the bottom makeing it look like an steam-punk psycho gundam
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

"azrael" and "Seto Kaiba" - I know perfectly well what a "modular system" and how it differs from the transformation ... and once the discussion moved away from the topic, then try again to explain what was meant by this example

Incidentally, not all robots are huge, and enough of those machines, which is lower than 10 meters

In the first case there is a "Full Metal Panic!", Where the engineers were challenged to adapt mecha for landing from the air and from the water. Instead of designing a transformer, they have created a simple system of interchangeable modules that allow to solve the problem and with minimal costs.
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/ful ... 0228031330
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In the second case there is a "Heavy Gear", where the troops are perfectly balanced in terms of the interaction of infantry / tanks / mek / and aviation. In addition, all armored vehicles on the same technological level with mecha, mecha also have built-in wheel in legs. However, there are present "Hussar" and "Jerboa", transforming into the tank and motorcycle, respectively. This interesting and beautiful machines, but, when the above conditions, the need for transforming units is simply no...


So, suppose that we have a world like "Front Mission", where all armored vehicles on the same technological level with mecha, mek have a modular system and can be easily adapted, etc.

What role it can play in transformers?

I believe that if they are not suitable for the practice of open conflict, it is possible to use their ability modified for reconnaissance and sabotage - such as a six-meter mek can be transformed into a small van
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azrael
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:What role it can play in transformers?

I believe that if they are not suitable for the practice of open conflict, it is possible to use their ability modified for reconnaissance and sabotage - such as a six-meter mek can be transformed into a small van
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560828.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560953.png
What's wrong with hijacking a vehicle?
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:So, suppose that we have a world like "Front Mission", where all armored vehicles on the same technological level with mecha, mek have a modular system and can be easily adapted, etc.

What role it can play in transformers?

I believe that if they are not suitable for the practice of open conflict, it is possible to use their ability modified for reconnaissance and sabotage - such as a six-meter mek can be transformed into a small van
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560828.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560953.png
... and what value does that add? A giant robot is NOT stealthy or even remotely subtle, so what benefit would an infiltration team get from having a hilariously conspicuous vehicle vs. having the same kind of vehicle as civilians and blending in seamlessly with the crowd?
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Mimeblade
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Well, regardless, there are places like Toyota Zeonic that take Robotics SERIOUSLY (even the transforming aspects).

Maybe it's a romantic notion to want to build a giant robot (cue Robotics;Notes theme), and maybe it may not be 100% logic or science, but it's a fun dream to pursue.

It's less about making weapons that are tactical and more about making a technology that's cool and fun to pilot.

And hey, if some day they make Angel-wing shaped thruster verniers that can enter and exit the atmosphere... I'd love to see it happen.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Mimeblade wrote:Well, regardless, there are places like Toyota Zeonic that take Robotics SERIOUSLY (even the transforming aspects).

Maybe it's a romantic notion to want to build a giant robot (cue Robotics;Notes theme), and maybe it may not be 100% logic or science, but it's a fun dream to pursue.

It's less about making weapons that are tactical and more about making a technology that's cool and fun to pilot.

And hey, if some day they make Angel-wing shaped thruster verniers that can enter and exit the atmosphere... I'd love to see it happen.
Well, if you are trying to go into that line of thought, then I guess Amusement park attractions can be an answer to your question.

As long as entertainment exist, and some people are willing to and rich enough to pay for it, anything can exist rationally.
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Seto Kaiba wrote: ... and what value does that add? A giant robot is NOT stealthy or even remotely subtle, so what benefit would an infiltration team get from having a hilariously conspicuous vehicle vs. having the same kind of vehicle as civilians and blending in seamlessly with the crowd?
It looks like you have vision problems :(

"Little" combat robot that can transform into a "truck" can, with some preparation and masking, to pass on the problematic area and gather the necessary intelligence (thanks to electronics), to carry out surprise attacks against objects (thanks firepower), etc.

And, in contrast to the SWAT team, there is no need to deliver or evacuate the soldiers; You do not need to provide a diversionary group of weapons and explosives, etc.

http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 559813.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560953.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560828.png

"Small" means the height of 5 meters, and "masking" is an opportunity to view one of the plurality of civil / military trucks
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Kuruni
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote: ... and what value does that add? A giant robot is NOT stealthy or even remotely subtle, so what benefit would an infiltration team get from having a hilariously conspicuous vehicle vs. having the same kind of vehicle as civilians and blending in seamlessly with the crowd?
It looks like you have vision problems :(

"Little" combat robot that can transform into a "truck" can, with some preparation and masking, to pass on the problematic area and gather the necessary intelligence (thanks to electronics), to carry out surprise attacks against objects (thanks firepower), etc.
Easier to just use non-transformable armed truck equipped with electronic devices.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:It looks like you have vision problems :(
Nope, my eyesight's 20/20... and while I can't tell you why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch, I can in fact tell you that there are few things that would be more conspicuous than a giant robot... so it would be fairly worthless for covert operations.


-Mit- wrote:"Little" combat robot that can transform into a "truck" can, with some preparation and masking, to pass on the problematic area and gather the necessary intelligence (thanks to electronics), to carry out surprise attacks against objects (thanks firepower), etc.
The problem is that a "little" combat robot that can transform into a truck is only going to fool the most casual observers... anyone who looks at it closely (like, say, police or security forces) is not going to be fooled for long, especially once they look inside or underneath it and see that it isn't a conventional vehicle. If it's battle-damaged, it'll be instantly recognizable as not being a civilian's truck, and no covert ops team wants a conspicuous getaway vehicle.

If the goal is to remain covert, it's better by far to just have a thoroughly conventional truck that has some discreet upgrades like anti-ballistic panels in the cabin and a surveillance electronics... and if you want to carry troops, just make it a panel van or a cargo truck.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:
It looks like you have vision problems :(

"Little" combat robot that can transform into a "truck" can, with some preparation and masking, to pass on the problematic area and gather the necessary intelligence (thanks to electronics), to carry out surprise attacks against objects (thanks firepower), etc.

And, in contrast to the SWAT team, there is no need to deliver or evacuate the soldiers; You do not need to provide a diversionary group of weapons and explosives, etc.

http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 559813.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560953.png
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 560828.png

"Small" means the height of 5 meters, and "masking" is an opportunity to view one of the plurality of civil / military trucks

Even if I ignore the fact that the transformation parts will take up quite significant volume of the mecha, rendering it worse in electronics than a simple truck without the transformation systems, with say, magic to fit extra stuff inside and no other designs can utilize the magic if it is not transformable.

Why do you want a mecha with both abilities?
It would be pretty easy to track any vehicle in the size you described.
Once you launch an attack, or if you have been spotted, you won't have any chance to transform into truck mode and hide. Transforming in front of the enemy gives you no advantage in hiding, yet a 5m tall humanoid is extremely visible, while you can't really hope a transformable mecha can transform and take out all the enemies before they can even react and fight back.

In fact, it'd be equally powerful(if not more powerful) if you just equip conceallable weapons inside a non-transformable truck if the surprise element is all you want. Yet it is also nigh impossible for the vehicle to escape after launching an attack.

I'd say who can't spot the mecha after it launched any kind of attack is the one who got vision problems.
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azrael
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Again, what's wrong with acquiring local transportation? Any kind of covert operation usually depends greatly on stealth. A transforming vehicle loses stealth when it transforms. Any vehicle carrying heavy weapons (transforming or not) loses stealth when revealed. In situations where you don't want to attract attention, blending in is a rule of thumb. Bringing a robot that sticks out might be okay if you plan to get into a firefight, but covert operations tries to avoid all of that.
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-Mit-
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...

At least in "Martian Successor Nadesico" implemented a similar idea
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...
Nah, nobody here has anything against new and unusual ideas for mecha... it's just that we prefer those new and unusual ideas to make sense in context.

This... well... doesn't.
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Kuruni
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...

At least in "Martian Successor Nadesico" implemented a similar idea
Yup, in form of Gekiganger 3.

Now, Japanese Wikipedia claim that the in-universe expalantion (I mean Nadesico's, not Gekiganger's) about Gekiganger 3 got replaced by Gekiganger V is because the in-universe toymaker want to sell actual transformable toys, something that can't be done with Gekiganger 3's "morphing" transformation. So it got replace by larger Gekeganger V with simpler transformation mechanic.

Yes, it's toys again.
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