Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

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azrael
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...

At least in "Martian Successor Nadesico" implemented a similar idea
What works in Nadescio's world works for its world, not so much elsewhere. It has to make sense in context. Context. Context. Context. Stuff in Gundam doesn't necessarily work in Macross. Stuff in Macross doesn't necessarily work in Aquarion. Stuff in Code Geass doesn't necessarily work in Full Metal Panic. Again, context. Shoehorning stuff into a world with predefined rules usually ends up in a mess.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

azrael wrote:What works in Nadescio's world works for its world, not so much elsewhere.
It didn't work in Nadesico's world either... it worked in an in-universe TV show in Nadesico's world. :lol:


azrael wrote:It has to make sense in context. Context. Context. Context. Stuff in Gundam doesn't necessarily work in Macross. Stuff in Macross doesn't necessarily work in Aquarion. Stuff in Code Geass doesn't necessarily work in Full Metal Panic. Again, context. Shoehorning stuff into a world with predefined rules usually ends up in a mess.
Weirdly, most mecha shows are in accord that giant robots are NOT stealthy or at all suitable for undercover work and that transforming tanks are pointless.
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MrMarch
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...

At least in "Martian Successor Nadesico" implemented a similar idea
Now that’s just not fair. I can’t speak for others, but I’ve specifically said I like the idea of transforming tanks and I’ve gone out of my way to differentiate that fact from the conversation of their place within the context of the Macross universe. I also specifically said it’s very possible they could exist in Macross and that the only reason why they are not, is due to whether or not Shoji Kawamori likes transforming tanks.

I think one of the problems when you get so invested in a topic and so passionate about it, folks have a tendency to reduce the opposing view point. Like I said, I wished we could have just drawn a transforming tank using some Macross motifs. Believe me, I would if I could.

As for Nadesico, well, that's not Macross now is it? :)
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MythSearcher
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

-Mit- wrote:You guys obviously do not like the new and unusual ideas for mek...

At least in "Martian Successor Nadesico" implemented a similar idea
Simply put, ideas can be good or bad, and unusual ideas usually are unusual because of 2 reasons:
1) It is really new, or
2) Not that much people buy that idea, in simple terms, most people don't like it(not necessary hating it, just not interested)

Since the transforming tank is not really that new of an idea, especially it appeared in at least a few really famous/popular series, it is obviously not 1), but 2) in this case. If not, a lot of newer series will follow the new trend and introduce their own version.

Either way, if you want transforming ground vehicles, it seems to be a much more popular idea in transformers and the brave series, most if not all have their own will, fully automated and sentient.
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

No one seems to have mentioned Artmic anime in terms of transformation utility. Especially since they tended to focus on non-giant combat mecha.

Genesis Climber Mospeada: The MOSPEADA battle bike (Cyclones to us Yanks ;)) is a powered exoskeleton whose transformation mode gives a stranded fighter pilot or a brave infantryman a speed and mobility beyond their own two feet. The storage mode means the cool mecha can be effectively transported, a feature not usually planned for in stories. And without attached weapons, the bike looks like an unremarkable small-frame motorcycle. Just the thing for recon missions...

Megazone 23: The Garland was supposed to mimic a civilian vehicle. So they made it look like a (large) racing motorcycle. Now if they could have just made the cute AI play along...

Star Front Gall Force: Hover bikes that turn into combat exo-frames! Reasonable option for taking the bikes out for a recon mission and then suddenly needing to fight enemies who are hampering a speedy retreat. (George Lucas eat your heart out. :P)

Bubble Gum Crisis: The DD infiltrator mecha has a useful large power armor form, but it has an all-terrain beast mode for speed and handy insertion utility. Plus it will scare the blazes out of local yokels! :D
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False Prophet
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Have anyone hear talk about mecha which seems to works primarily in plane mode instead of bipedal mode? I think that it is a much more plausible situation, with the bipedal mode only called when a particular complex task appears. For example, the new Methuss X-1 from the Anaheim Laboratory Log seems to be one of such.

(UC Gundam really needs more planes and transformable MS that look like a planes instead of something ridiculous.)
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

False Prophet wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 11:07 am Have anyone hear talk about mecha which seems to works primarily in plane mode instead of bipedal mode?
No. Never hear about it.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

False Prophet wrote: Fri May 26, 2017 11:07 am Have anyone hear talk about mecha which seems to works primarily in plane mode instead of bipedal mode? I think that it is a much more plausible situation, with the bipedal mode only called when a particular complex task appears. For example, the new Methuss X-1 from the Anaheim Laboratory Log seems to be one of such.

(UC Gundam really needs more planes and transformable MS that look like a planes instead of something ridiculous.)
Still wouldn't make much sense IRL.
Especially if the taskes are not common, you really don't need a specific form to complete it.

You really don't want to drag around 25~50% of useless weight on your weapon to lower its performance by that much.
It is really a serious spec difference against an enemy with similar tech and build simple and efficient machines.

In military, you need efficiency, not romance, to win.
If you have a common primary mode, and a less common complex task, you can always have larger quantity of planes(in your case) for the main tasks and small quantity of bipeds you can deploy for complex tasks.
If the share of the different tasks are more equal, you simple need equal number of these machines, not weakened version of both of them.

The only situations where a transformable weapon makes sense would be:
1) Tech level is seriously out balanced.
Even with the weakened specs, you can still out perform ALL of your opponents weapons, or at least keep a similar spec level but out number them by simply having your weapons fighting in all environments.
This is plausible but highly improbable and improperble.(unethical since your pilots will have to go through hell with training for different environments AND fight much more battles to fill the quantity gap)
2) Resources level is seriously out balanced.
Simply put, you ignore the spec difference and make up with overwhelming numbers. You tech level will still have to be certain level higher so the spec difference isn't that much.(Say, WWII Stalin pretty much tried to use the out number strategy against superiorly speced Nazi fighters, didn't turn out so well and contributed to the 3-digit-kill aces)
3) Tech level is so advanced that you really don't need to care much for added weight.
Given nonsensically advance tech level, an era where personal weapon will likely be powered with something that can out perform our nuclear aircraft carriers and maybe even large cities, and you can kinda warp space-time, a few dozen of tons don't necessarily slow you down by much.
Of course, in this case, 20 metre class mobile weapons will be pretty much child's play and likely not going to be used in serious war at all, but will likely be used as recreation, so it can be all forms of romance.

The fun thing is, usually for case 1) and 2), those super powers are likely really economic and efficent and will not utilize such inefficient designs.(That is also usually why they became such super power to begin with)
Usually only the factions that are at the weaker side of the spectrum tries to out perform the opposing super power by unconventional and exotic methods. IRL we have late WWII Nazy Germany and Imperial Japan and in Gundam we have late OYW Zeon.(which is obvious got the idea from WWII Nazi and Japan) The Super Powers usually have similar exotic weapons in development, but never as serious nor taking up a major budget in their spendings.
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Can we talk about the real-life reason of Transformable MS? I know that by the time of Zeta, Macross had made a name for it. But what really pushed Tomino and his team to come up with the concept of Transformable MS?
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

False Prophet wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:24 pm Can we talk about the real-life reason of Transformable MS? I know that by the time of Zeta, Macross had made a name for it. But what really pushed Tomino and his team to come up with the concept of Transformable MS?
Based on what I've read on the matter in old issues of Bandai's B-Club Magazine from the early 90's, it was the commercial success of Macross and the later shows that picked up the transforming real robot concept and ran with it (e.g. Aura Battler Dunbine, Heavy Metal L-Gaim, Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers) that persuaded Tomino and company to include transformable mobile suits to Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam.

B-Club Magazine Vol.79 has, as part of its "VF History" piece commemorating Macross II: Lovers Again, an article devoted to talking about the influence Macross had on mechanical design by popularizing the concept of the transforming real robot. The Zeta Gundam is one of several designs listed therein as being inspired by the VF-1 Valkyrie.

(Ironically, Zeta Gundam designer Kazumi Fujita would go on to design new Valkyries for Macross in Macross II: Lovers Again alongside Char's Counterattack designer Koichi Ohata.)
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MythSearcher
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:45 am
False Prophet wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:24 pm Can we talk about the real-life reason of Transformable MS? I know that by the time of Zeta, Macross had made a name for it. But what really pushed Tomino and his team to come up with the concept of Transformable MS?
Based on what I've read on the matter in old issues of Bandai's B-Club Magazine from the early 90's, it was the commercial success of Macross and the later shows that picked up the transforming real robot concept and ran with it (e.g. Aura Battler Dunbine, Heavy Metal L-Gaim, Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers) that persuaded Tomino and company to include transformable mobile suits to Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam.

B-Club Magazine Vol.79 has, as part of its "VF History" piece commemorating Macross II: Lovers Again, an article devoted to talking about the influence Macross had on mechanical design by popularizing the concept of the transforming real robot. The Zeta Gundam is one of several designs listed therein as being inspired by the VF-1 Valkyrie.

(Ironically, Zeta Gundam designer Kazumi Fujita would go on to design new Valkyries for Macross in Macross II: Lovers Again alongside Char's Counterattack designer Koichi Ohata.)
That is what I've heard of and believed.
However, I always have some doubt in that even before Macross and Gundam, Tomino did Daitan 3, which is a Super Robot but already has quite some real robot aspects to it.(or so I've heard, never actually seen the show) Daitan 3 is transformable, and I believe that Tomino had transformable in mind for quite some time and what Macross "pushed" is the turn to a more realistic depiction than a super robot type trasform system that doesn't really make much sense. Early Zeta designs, which became the Psycho Gundam, still has some leftover from that era.
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Seto Kaiba
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Re: Is there anyway to any rationality in transformers?

MythSearcher wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:36 am That is what I've heard of and believed.
However, I always have some doubt in that even before Macross and Gundam, Tomino did Daitan 3, which is a Super Robot but already has quite some real robot aspects to it.(or so I've heard, never actually seen the show) Daitan 3 is transformable, and I believe that Tomino had transformable in mind for quite some time and what Macross "pushed" is the turn to a more realistic depiction than a super robot type trasform system that doesn't really make much sense. Early Zeta designs, which became the Psycho Gundam, still has some leftover from that era.
While it's never been explicitly confirmed anywhere I know of, I've always suspected the prime mover behind having transformable mobile suits in Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam was Mamoru Nagano. He'd already flirted with using a transformable real robot as the main mecha of his earlier Heavy Metal L-Gaim series, and he makes a habit of reusing old designs with aesthetic modifications. We know he worked on the initial concept for the Zeta Gundam's design, and knowing his habits I doubt it's coincidence that the Zeta Gundam's Wave Rider mode looks so much like the L-Gaim Mk.II's Prowler mode... especially since L-Gaim was a collaboration with Tomino.

(His original concept eventually became the Hyakushiki, and you can see the legacy of the L-Gaim Mk.II all over it... and the seeds of its evolution into the Junchoon, Engage, and Berlin from Five Star Stories.)
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