The origin of Psychoframe in manga continuity

[False Prophet]

Who invented the Psychoframe, if we looked at the aspect of the mangas? To me, there are three possible explanations:

1. Nanai Miguel or a scientist of Neo Zeon: This fits almost all of the details we have known, except a certain one: Nanai and her team, before they defected to Char's side, worked as an EFF-sponsored research group (Beyond the Time). It directly conflicts with the event of Beltorchika's children, in which Londo Bell only got the technology after capturing Grave Guss's Psyco Geara Doga.

2. Anaheim held the technology; however, at first only a branch of them had it and produced the Sazabi, Psyco Geara Doga, and Alpha Azieru. There are only two possible candidates: the former Zeonic or Zimmad. We don't know where Zimmad is located, but Zeonic is in Granada. Although Von Braun was where Nu Gundam was produced, still...

3. Neo Zeon retrieved the Minaret (Johnny Ridden MSV) which held the fruits of Zeon's OYW researchs, including Newtype. I know it is a risky possibility, since the Crimson Lightning manga hasn't been fully translated, but just think about it: Kycillia formed the Chimera Corp for the possibility that Char's 300th Independent Newtype Corp rebel against her. It isn't impossible for she then to entrust Chimera with the prototype blueprint of anti-Newtype technology.

Any thought?

[Seto Kaiba]

Who invented the Psychoframe, if we looked at the aspect of the mangas? To me, there are three possible explanations:

If we're looking at Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack BEYOND THE TIME, then isn't the answer technically #1 AND #2? (Well, more #1 than #2, I guess.)

IIRC, the Zeta Gundam comic Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: Day After Tomorrow - From Kai Shiden's Report, Nanai Miguel was originally a research student with the Kilimanjaro Newtype Lab (under the Titans) before the base was captured by Karaba and the AEUG, and she was taken prisoner. At some point after that, Nanai defected to Neo Zeon and completed the design for the psycoframe technology, which sets up the plot of Beyond the Time.

Nanai and Neo Zeon's Newtype Institute did the development, but it was the Anaheim Electronics facility (fmrly. Zeonic) in Granada that actually built the first psycoframes based on the research data provided by Nanai and Neo Zeon. AE Granada was also responsible for leaking psycoframe technology to the Earth Federation Forces by way of AE Von Braun, where the Federation had its main mobile suit production facilities. (Allegedly this was possible because Anaheim had grown large enough and decentralized enough that different branches were operating autonomously for years, which provided the executives a convenient excuse for selling arms to both sides.)

[Gelgoog Jager]

Doesn't Char tell Amuro he intentionally leaked the Psycoframe data so Amuro wouldn't fight him with a subpar MS?

On the other hand, if the technology was developed by Neo Zeon, I wonder if the events from Missing Link which involve Vincent Gleissner, who is using a prototype Geara Doga from Char's Neo Zeon forces, attacking a group of Glemy rebels remnants which have a NZ-000 in their possession. By the end of the First Neo Zeon War, Glemy's forces had seized most of Neo Zeon's most advanced weapons and technology, including newtype-related materials, so I could certainly imagine the events from Missing Link perhaps involving the retrieval of such research from them.

On a different note, I find ironic that the more we hear from later Neo Zeon movements, the more we can trace their technology back to Haman's Neo Zeon. We had previously heard that the Shamblo and Geara Doga were designs from them and now even the Psycoframe seems to have come from them. If the civil war hadn't erupted when it did, I think the EF would have had a really hard defeating Neo Zeon with all the assets they had at their disposal.

[Mimeblade]

I seem to remember Char leaking info to Amuro too... but I don't know if that's canonical within the Manga, just the movie.

I'd also like to know how this ties in with how the RX-0 was developed.

[Seto Kaiba]

Doesn't Char tell Amuro he intentionally leaked the Psycoframe data so Amuro wouldn't fight him with a subpar MS?

He did... the way he did it varies between depictions though, whether he leaked it internally via Anaheim so it would reach the RX-93 project team or (IIRC) allowing a Psyco Doga to fall into Federation hands.

I seem to remember Char leaking info to Amuro too... but I don't know if that's canonical within the Manga, just the movie.

I'd also like to know how this ties in with how the RX-0 was developed.

As I understand it, the Federation publicly claimed that psycoframe development was canceled due to the unpredictable nature of the technology... but continued researching the technology in secret at the Anaheim facilities in Granada when Anaheim majority stockholder and political powerhouses Cardeas Vist and Martha Vist Carbine pushed for the UC Project to modernize the EFF and wipe out Zeonism in the Earth Sphere. (The Vists then exploited their supervisory role over Anaheim's RX-0 program to put the La+ system in it.)

[Mimeblade]

Here's what I don't get:

I could've sworn Psycoframe tech was developed as early as Zeta Gundam, and I thought Zeta Gundam itself was based on the idea of a Psycoframe.

So why wait till later during CCA to develop Nu or Hi-Nu?

How does Zeta compare to Nu Gundam anyway?

[Dark Duel]

No, Zeta does not have a psycoframe - it - no mobile suit did until the 0090s IIRC.
The Zeta doesn't even have a regular psycommu system - I think only the Qubeley and the Psyco Gundams do. It has something called a "bio-sensor", which I assume is an unrelated development of the same basic technology(the psycommu system previously seen in Zeke mobile armors/suits like the Zeong).

[Seto Kaiba]

Here's what I don't get:

I could've sworn Psycoframe tech was developed as early as Zeta Gundam, and I thought Zeta Gundam itself was based on the idea of a Psycoframe.

So why wait till later during CCA to develop Nu or Hi-Nu?

The bio-sensor system used on the MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam and PMX-003 The O works a little like a psycoframe, but it's not clear if it was a related development or not. Anaheim is the developer of bio-sensor technology, but they may have been receiving input/feedback from one or more of the Newtype labs operated under the oversight of the Titans. Since the psycoframe was conceived at one of those labs by a scientist who later defected to Neo Zeon, it's possible that the psycoframe was either the inspiration for, or inspired by, the bio-sensor... which is a less elegant and precise way to achieve direct interface between the pilot's thoughts and the mobile suit's controls.

[Gelgoog Jager]

On a related note, it might be worth keeping track of the new Blue Destiny manga:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16682

The new design of the Blue Destiny transforms when the EXAM system activates, like a primitive NT-D system. I think they are trying to show a more clear relationship between and perhaps they will also explain more clearly their relationship with the EXAM-based HADES system of the RX-80PR (later AMX-018).

Back to the topic, since Nanai seems to be at the center of the development of this technology and she seems to have defected from the EF to Axis, I wonder if there might be a connection between her and the ORX-013, of which we are told one of the 3 prototypes ended in the hands of Axis and eventually served as the basis for the Dooben Wolf and it's irmpoved quasi-psycommu system, which was supposedly far better than Axis own system previously used on the AMX-103 Hamma Hamma.

I suppose that other factors might have played a key role for Axis developing this technology, starting with Axis more advanced Psycommu system research, but also including captured technology: the abandoned MRX-010 at the Axis asteroid by the end of the Gryps conflict and the captured the RX-80PR at the end of the OYW.

Edit: I forgot to mention Axis/Neo Zeon first cyber-newtypes, Mashymere Cello and Chara Soon, whom we can probably assume might were conditioned by Nanai Miguel if she had already defected at that point.

[Mimeblade]

Bit of trivia, but Gundam Breaker 2 goes so far as to connect Blue Destiny with Gundam Sentinel as far as scratch development is concerned.

Ez8 > BD1 > BD2 > BD3 > Pale Rider > Sentinel

Though I don't know if ALICE is anything like EXAM or HADES.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Well, Shiro Amada and his damaged Gundam is rescued on November 10th. The timing of the following events is unclear, but his inquiry takes place on November 20th and it seems that at that point his Gundam has yet to be repaired.

On the other hands the events of Blue Destiny as per Mark's timeline would put the first deployment of the BD-1 on mid November, so it seems the BD-1 was already around before the Ez-8 was ever built.

More importantly, the new Blue Destiny manga gives a RGM-79BD-0, based on the RGM-79[G], which precedes the RX-79BD-1. Check this thread for more info:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 82&start=0

The BD-2 on the other hand simply seems to be a space version of the BD-1, while the BD-3 is built using spare parts from the BD-1 and BD-2. By the way, we are told the reason the BD-1 has a GM head is because the head originally belong to the BD-0, itself built from a RGM-79[G] frame. After the EF is done using it for testing they decide to simply transfer its head (where the EXAM system is located) to the BD-1, which is based on a RX-79[G] frame.

As for Alice, is seems to be a completely unrelated technology, since it is an AI that can take over control of the MS, rather than a system that improves the performance of the pilot.

All this being said, I believe I read somewhere that Yuu Kajima did had some sort of reaction related to Marion during the Axis shock, which I guess do could point some faint relationship between both technologies (EXAM and Psycoframe).

Taking all this into consideration, I guess my current question is: did the Principality of Zeon managed to retain any information on the EXAM after Moses defection? And even if that was the case, did the Principality itself had access to that data, or Nimbus made sure to be the only one aware of it? From what little we see about him, he does seem to have plenty of freedom to go around and seems to be able to request additional troops, which makes me wonder if as crazy as he might been (specially by the end), he at least kept appearances with his superiors in order to receive supplies and reinforcements.

[False Prophet]

On a related note, it might be worth keeping track of the new Blue Destiny manga:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16682

The new design of the Blue Destiny transforms when the EXAM system activates, like a primitive NT-D system. I think they are trying to show a more clear relationship between and perhaps they will also explain more clearly their relationship with the EXAM-based HADES system of the RX-80PR (later AMX-018).

Back to the topic, since Nanai seems to be at the center of the development of this technology and she seems to have defected from the EF to Axis, I wonder if there might be a connection between her and the ORX-013, of which we are told one of the 3 prototypes ended in the hands of Axis and eventually served as the basis for the Dooben Wolf and it's irmpoved quasi-psycommu system, which was supposedly far better than Axis own system previously used on the AMX-103 Hamma Hamma.

I suppose that other factors might have played a key role for Axis developing this technology, starting with Axis more advanced Psycommu system research, but also including captured technology: the abandoned MRX-010 at the Axis asteroid by the end of the Gryps conflict and the captured the RX-80PR at the end of the OYW.

Edit: I forgot to mention Axis/Neo Zeon first cyber-newtypes, Mashymere Cello and Chara Soon, whom we can probably assume might were conditioned by Nanai Miguel if she had already defected at that point.

That is impossible. Nanai was only 19 when the First Neo Zeon War happened. Also, it was mentioned that Neo Zeon's Cyber Newtypes are very different from their Principality of Zeon's predecessor (Enhanced Human). Chara was also just a normal human in U.C 0080 (C.D.A), which means that at best, Cello and Chara might have received enhancements just before Gryps Conflict, when Nanai was just an adolescence.

I haven't played Missing Link yet, so what is the different between EXAM and HADES anyway? Could the latter really be implemented into Quasi Psycommu warfare (INCOM controlling) like the Sentinel anyway? I doubt that there is much HADES can contribute to ALICE's development, since Augusta was a Titans-loyalist facility).

(I still don't know why couldn't they just make another ALEX - well, there are the NT-2 and NT-3 huh? I don't know where did they come from.)

So, what really happened between 0088 and 0092? Beside Revival of Zeon and Missing Link, I don't know if there are other materials to look into.

[Gelgoog Jager]

It's important to note that the conditioning of Mashymere and Chara seems to have occurred during the 1st Neo Zeon War itself. At least in the case of Mashymere who clearly undergoes a drastic change of personality. I would like to think that the same is truth for Chara, but I must admit that her odd initial personality and the fact that she already had some Newtypes reactions early on during the conflict made me think she underwent conditioning twice, with the second one being far more effective than the earlier. The alternative is that she just had a weird personality from the beginning and already had some Newtypes capabilities.

The HADES seems to have a similar effect on the pilot as the EXAM, but it doesn't require a Newtypes for providing the increased capabilities (Marion Welch), but comes with the drawback of causing memory loss. After the OYW Axis rebuilds the captured RX-80PR into the AMX-018, retaining the head with HADES system and adding weapons such as incoms to it.

As for the ALEX, let's remember that it wasn't an actual NT unit, just a MS with really high performance that a Newtypes could make the most out of it. At the end of the OYW, the EF finds the blueprints of the Zeong at A BaoaQu which become the cornerstone of their NT research.

[Mimeblade]

I haven't played Missing Link yet, so what is the different between EXAM and HADES anyway? Could the latter really be implemented into Quasi Psycommu warfare (INCOM controlling) like the Sentinel anyway? I doubt that there is much HADES can contribute to ALICE's development, since Augusta was a Titans-loyalist facility).

(I still don't know why couldn't they just make another ALEX - well, there are the NT-2 and NT-3 huh? I don't know where did they come from.)

So, what really happened between 0088 and 0092? Beside Revival of Zeon and Missing Link, I don't know if there are other materials to look into.

Well, take what I've said with a grain of salt, because Gundam Breaker 2 tends to have rather weird associations with certain MS as far as scratch development goes:

BD3 > Sentinel
Zeta Gundam > Gundam AGE-2
Guncannon > Perfect Gundam / Jesta Cannon
Kampfer > Tallgeese
Astray Green Frame > Shining Gundam
Wing Gundam > Gundam Kyrios
Build Strike > Aile Strike
Stargazer > Strike Freedom
Astray Red Frame > Gundam Exia
Gafran > Epyon

And these are cross-series...

I just found it interesting that they associated Blue Destiny with Sentinel, to be honest.

If anything EX-S is closer to ZZ or FAZZ if you ask me... here's another weird one (not to get off topic):

Gundam MkII Titans > Banshee
Gundam MkII AEUG > Unicorn

[Gelgoog Jager]

So, what really happened between 0088 and 0092? Beside Revival of Zeon and Missing Link, I don't know if there are other materials to look into.

Well, you could look into Advance Of Zeta Reboot and Meaningless War 0091.

[AmuroNT1]

The official explanation for HADES is that the Augusta Labs kept harassing Chulst Moses for data on the EXAM System, so eventually he threw them a few random scraps that they cobbled together into HADES. When it comes up in-game, Alph Kamra is offended at the idea of the Pale Rider having anything to do with his Blue. As for any specific differences between the two systems, well, I'm not sure.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Take this with a grain of salt, but there's the description of the HADES system on the Gundam wikia:

HADES
An acronym for HYPER ANIMOSITY DETECT ESTIMATE SYSTEM. It is a controversial system which seems to be similar to the earlier developed EXAM System. The HADES was created by the Augusta Newtype Lab with the data they requested from Chlust Moses regarding the EXAM system. As with the EXAM system, the HADES provides a temporary increase in equipped mobile suit's performance along with increased reaction times to the pilot. This strengthening of the pilot's abilities is done by forcibly increasing and speeding up the neurotransmissions in the pilot's brain. This process however leads to the side effect of gradual memory loss. Akin to the EXAM system's aggression and tendency to go berserk, the HADES can activate without the pilot's consent when it detects a perceived threat, regardless of it being an ally or foe. When under the influence of the system, the mobile suit's visor glows red and all of its exhaust vents glow yellow.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Psycommu