The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:43 am

That is, of course, if that particular fleet was using something in the -24/25 lineage as its main frontline unit, which we know is not the case for all of them since at least some of them - such as the one in Delta - are still using the -171.
Of course, I do think your question as to whether the particular -22 we see here has been upgraded or not is a good one, and I'm curious about that myself.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:01 pm

yazi88 wrote:You know what... I think one POSSIBLE reason why we haven't seen any other Macross class ships is that NUNS doesn't want the ship and its crew to fall victim and in control of the Windemere fleet.
That could work, I guess... since there have been hints that the federal New UN Forces knew about Windermere's weaponization of Var syndrome, they might have pulled the Brisingr cluster's biggest defense assets to avoid having them used against them later.


yazi88 wrote:Also.... is there a possibility that the VF-22S (If the one shown was categorized as that) might be upgraded like the VF-171 Nightmare Plus? Maybe the VF-22 Sturmfogel Plus version?

All those years must've seen some upgrades (possibly custom ones) to this Valkyrie if its still being used as a special forces unit, cause otherwise I'm guessing whatever version of the YF-24/VF-24/VF-25 that this NUNS fleet was using could've been a option too given that a good number of years passed since Frontier for these to be actually used by NUNS.
Very doubtful, in my opinion.

The main upgrades that went into the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX were to its engines and its flight performance. The VF-22 Sturmvogel II was already pushing the limits of the endurance of its pilots without modification, and even its rudimentary inertia capacitor system couldn't keep up. It almost certainly received some enhancements along the way, like improved active stealth systems, control software updates, avionics improvements, weapons, etc., but it's doubtful they would've done much with its flight performance... unless the engine manufacturer addressed the overheating problem in the original design that capped the engine output at 60% of the design limit in atmosphere.

We don't know if Wright Immelmann belonged to the local or federal New UN Spacy... so having the VF-22 may be indicative either of his unit being a low-priority federal unit out in the galactic boonies (the Brisingr cluster is supposedly so far out you're surprised you don't hear banjos on the flight in), or that his unit was part of the Brisingr Alliance's regional New UN Spacy defense forces and thus at the time was not even close to transitioning to a 5th Generation VF.

All things considered, even the relatively wealthy fleets and emigrant worlds are only just starting to transition to 5th Generation VFs in the mid-2060's. Macross Frontier and Olympia supposedly aren't deploying VF-25s in any significant numbers as the incoming main fighter until 2065, and Earth was not that far ahead of everyone else (having only approved their 5th Gen VF for mass production two years before Frontier did). If I were a betting man, I'd wager the VF-31 Kairos developed by Surya Aerospace is probably the locally-developed replacement for the VF-171 for the Brisingr Alliance... and that it was probably being field-tested by Xaos prior to adoption, just as SMS did with the VF-25.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:48 pm

Ah, you make a good point about the limitations of the VF-22's frame not being able to get upgraded much without a significant overhaul.

Although I'm still curious about the choice of using the VF-22 as a special forces fighter when the VF-24 (and its family line) might've been a choice to replace the VF-22 for a special operations fighter, aside from the stealth feature that is. It can't be that easy to maintain a rather limited fighter like the VF-22 and that its performance would only be marginally better than the VF-171 but probably be outclassed by other latest fighters out there. The reason I'm saying this cause from Macross 30 we've seen the rival from a NUNS special forces unit use a YF-29 unit. So I'm wondering if this local NUNS couldn't get their hands on a newer fighter for their special forces/special operations...

But it might be the fact that this NUNS fleet is far out from NUNS HQ and isn't that lucky to get more newer units.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by azrael » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:24 pm

yazi88 wrote: Although I'm still curious about the choice of using the VF-22 as a special forces fighter when the VF-24 (and its family line) might've been a choice to replace the VF-22 for a special operations fighter, aside from the stealth feature that is. It can't be that easy to maintain a rather limited fighter like the VF-22 and that its performance would only be marginally better than the VF-171 but probably be outclassed by other latest fighters out there. The reason I'm saying this cause from Macross 30 we've seen the rival from a NUNS special forces unit use a YF-29 unit. So I'm wondering if this local NUNS couldn't get their hands on a newer fighter for their special forces/special operations...
Again, the YF-24-family just came out testing and localized units were just being put into production. During Wright's service, he won't have been able to get his hands on the YF-24 family unless he was around a wee bit longer. It would be easier to maintain a VF-22 at that time since parts for a VF-22 would still be quite abundant than parts for a YF-24-family fighter. The YF-24-family didn't materialize until ~2057. As for Macross 30, a Federal NUNS pilot would likely have access to a YF-29 more readily than a local NUNS pilot as their deployment would entail being sent to a variety of locations. Necessity for a localized pilot just isn't there compared to a federal pilot.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:23 pm

But do we know if Wright was a local sector pilot or a federal pilot? I thought that usually special forces pilots are considered federal. Cause Hayate mentioned that he moved around a lot because of his dad, that might imply that Wright has been in a bunch of locations for missions.

I also forgot that Wright piloted a VF-22 7 YEARS ago where the bombing happened... If it was current day he would've more likely gotten his hands on a newer fighter, but not back then, which was about a year after the events in Frontier.

But thank you guys for the feedback, it makes more sense now.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:19 pm

yazi88 wrote:Although I'm still curious about the choice of using the VF-22 as a special forces fighter when the VF-24 (and its family line) might've been a choice to replace the VF-22 for a special operations fighter, aside from the stealth feature that is. It can't be that easy to maintain a rather limited fighter like the VF-22 and that its performance would only be marginally better than the VF-171 but probably be outclassed by other latest fighters out there.
So... there are a few corrections/clarifications to be made here.

As azrael indicated and I alluded to previously, the Windermere war of independence in 2060 would have been a good deal too early for 5th Generation VFs to be in service in any significant numbers. The federal New UN Spacy had only approved the YF-24 Evolution for mass-production as the VF-24 three years ago, and it typically takes a couple of years for a fighter approved for production to actually enter military service in any numbers. It's likely that the Shinsei VF-24A was still in trial production back at Earth in 2060. The local New UN Spacy forces the colonies maintain are a sort of hybrid of national guard and militia status-wise, so as a rule they're not as well-equipped as the federal troops. This is, in part, because of arms export restrictions intended to ensure the federal forces have the biggest stick in war and partly due to the federal forces having way more money and manufacturing resources behind 'em. In 2060, those local emigrant governments were only just starting to get their ducks in a row for 5th Generation VFs... and even their usage of the higher-spec 4th Generation VFs like the VF-19 and VF-22 were heavily restricted. At the time Wright did that dirty deed (dirt cheap?), a 5th Generation VF for the local NUNS forces was a good 5-7 years away if not more...

Signs point to the VF-31A Kairos being the 5th Generation Main Variable Fighter the Brisingr Alliance developed as its repelacement for its fleet of aging VF-171s... though widespread adoption seems to be a ways off yet.

Secondly, the VF-24, VF-25, VF-27, and VF-31 are all Main Variable Fighter units. They're intended to replace the aging VF-171, not the existing special forces VFs. (At present, there doesn't seem to be a real contender for the NUN Spacy Special Forces VF.)

The VF-22 has a lot of the same technology and equipment as the VF-171, but its flight performance is superior by far. The whole point of the VF-171 was to take a step back from that extreme performance (and the accompanying costs for construction and maintenance) to something that an average pilot wouldn't lose control of and crash. A 5th Gen VF is gonna blow a VF-22 into the weeds, but a VF-22 definitely has the VF-171 at a disadvantage in a fight.


yazi88 wrote:The reason I'm saying this cause from Macross 30 we've seen the rival from a NUNS special forces unit use a YF-29 unit. So I'm wondering if this local NUNS couldn't get their hands on a newer fighter for their special forces/special operations...
Well, y'see... Havamal - the 815th Independent Squadron - had something of an advantage in that respect, as they're a semi-autonomous federal New UN Spacy Special Forces unit.

The YF-29 is a bank-breakingly expensive fighter for an emigrant fleet to build. So much so, in fact, that the relatively wealthy Macross Frontier fleet could only stomach building the one. Windermere was a dirt-poor colony even before seceding from the New UN Government, so even one YF-29 was probably right out. It speaks volumes of the money, influence, and resources of the federal New UN Forces that Colonel Todo was not only able to develop an enhanced version of the YF-29, he made the YF-29B Percival the fighter for Havamal's ace pilots.

(You can see why they had such an easy time taking over Uroboros... not only did they have the authority to ride roughshod over the local forces, they outgunned them by a monstrous margin.)
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:26 pm

yazi88 wrote:But do we know if Wright was a local sector pilot or a federal pilot? I thought that usually special forces pilots are considered federal. Cause Hayate mentioned that he moved around a lot because of his dad, that might imply that Wright has been in a bunch of locations for missions.
No word on that at present, but it's especially hard to tell in his case as the Brisingr cluster's individual worlds seem to have formed a kind of "Space NATO" alliance (the Brisingr Alliance) for mutual defense. The hints about where Wright Immelmann served all point to worlds in the Brisingr cluster, so it seems likely that he was part of the local NUNS that protected the Brisingr Alliance.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:33 pm

You make a very good point about the expenses of the VF-24 series, I never thought about the budget of the fleets up until now... Probably cause the previous Macross shows Fleets had a good budget and could afford the expensive toys.

But in Delta, its a local NUNS Garrison and they are at the boonies where even the ships are not in good shape either aside from the corporate owned ones.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:48 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:No word on that at present, but it's especially hard to tell in his case as the Brisingr cluster's individual worlds seem to have formed a kind of "Space NATO" alliance (the Brisingr Alliance) for mutual defense. The hints about where Wright Immelmann served all point to worlds in the Brisingr cluster, so it seems likely that he was part of the local NUNS that protected the Brisingr Alliance.
Yes and no. Certainly, Hayate's descriptions sound like Wright was primarily stationed in the Cluster, but it would seem that Robert Kino currently serves in the federal forces. Based on what little we know of Robert's relationship to Arad and Wright, it would seem he served with them closely enough to know quite a bit about Wright beyond his attack, meaning they likely served together directly. It seems odd to me that someone would serve in a local NUNS then transfer over to federal; if anything, I would expect most transfers occur in the opposite direction.

Given the conversation between Valan and his superiors in Ep.14, it sounds like the federal forces have a much better understanding of how the ruins and Windermerian fold technology works than anyone outside of Kaos, indicating that the federal forces had a greater role in the previous war than the local forces.

Combine Valan's conversation with what we know about Robert, and it would seem that there's a very strong chance that Wright was serving with the federal NUNS when he dropped the warhead. Given the far-reaching influence of NUNS, I would expect that there's a certain limitation in both how far and how frequently someone would be transferred, particularly if that service-member has a family out in the galactic boonies. It doesn't seem unrealistic to me that if Wright was in the federal force, he would be able to keep his deployments limited to the same general region of space for a decade or so at a time; this would conveniently line up with Hayate's age and when his father died.

Besides, if Wright had been in the local Cluster force, that begs the question of why Hayate would remember moving around frequently as a kid but would be unable to identify his father's location when his descriptions seem like a list of the most significant planets in the Cluster. If his father remained in the Cluster, how would Hayate be planet-hopping frequently without seeing a significant number of the interesting planets his father described?

Honestly, it sounds to me like Wright was serving in the federal NUNS forces.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Henyo » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:59 am

well that was certainly informative. :D
a new question though. is there any limit to how many Macross Class ships a Cluster/sector of space is allowed to have? better yet, how about a planet allied with the NUNS.

another is about teams/Squadrons in general. how many VFs does a usual team have? the original Skull Squadron only had three. M Frontier initially had 4.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by azrael » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:00 pm

Areku wrote: Yes and no. Certainly, Hayate's descriptions sound like Wright was primarily stationed in the Cluster, but it would seem that Robert Kino currently serves in the federal forces. Based on what little we know of Robert's relationship to Arad and Wright, it would seem he served with them closely enough to know quite a bit about Wright beyond his attack, meaning they likely served together directly.
Wright appears to have been Arad's CO at some point during Arad's career.
Henyo wrote:well that was certainly informative. :D
a new question though. is there any limit to how many Macross Class ships a Cluster/sector of space is allowed to have? better yet, how about a planet allied with the NUNS.
Depends on necessity. Could be 0 or 1, could be 10. Elysion was bought or licensed by Kaos so that doesn't really count as would any privately owned or operated Macross-type vessel.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:00 pm

azrael wrote:Wright appears to have been Arad's CO at some point during Arad's career.
Unless there's a detail about fleet composition that I'm forgetting and can't find by a few quick searches, that doesn't help us very much; do we know what particular service Arad was in? He called it the 77th Air Wing in Ep.17, but I don't remember him ever clarifying if he was local or federal; does "77th Air Wing" help us narrow anything down?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:31 pm

Areku wrote:Yes and no. Certainly, Hayate's descriptions sound like Wright was primarily stationed in the Cluster, but it would seem that Robert Kino currently serves in the federal forces.
Unlikely, IMO... given that Major Kino's aircraft, before being shot down, was a Block III VF-171 Nightmare Plus with the distinctive sand-colored livery the print sources tell us is used by the local New UN Forces out on the galactic rim.


Areku wrote:It seems odd to me that someone would serve in a local NUNS then transfer over to federal; if anything, I would expect most transfers occur in the opposite direction.
It would not be without precedent... but the evidence largely points to Major Immelmann and Major Kino having both served with the local New UN Forces.


Areku wrote:Given the conversation between Valan and his superiors in Ep.14, it sounds like the federal forces have a much better understanding of how the ruins and Windermerian fold technology works than anyone outside of Kaos, indicating that the federal forces had a greater role in the previous war than the local forces.
As seen in previous shows, just because the federal forces are calling the shots doesn't necessarily mean their troops are actually present.


Areku wrote:Besides, if Wright had been in the local Cluster force, that begs the question of why Hayate would remember moving around frequently as a kid but would be unable to identify his father's location when his descriptions seem like a list of the most significant planets in the Cluster. If his father remained in the Cluster, how would Hayate be planet-hopping frequently without seeing a significant number of the interesting planets his father described?
Hayate seems to be kind of a space-case at the best of times, but he wasn't even 10 years old when his dad snuffed it... so it may not be enterely surprising that he doesn't remember the names of the places his dad served, when he admits his dad didn't actually say where he was when he sent Hayate presents. There are about two dozen worlds across the Brisingr cluster, that's a LOT of possible terrain to cover, and Macross doesn't really do single biome planets like Star Wars is so fond of...




Henyo wrote:a new question though. is there any limit to how many Macross Class ships a Cluster/sector of space is allowed to have? better yet, how about a planet allied with the NUNS.
Nope... there doesn't seem to be any limit on how many Macross-type warships an emigrant fleet can have, and those ships are supposed to become the planetary defense forces once a colony is established. Some fleets have had one, some have had more. Colonies planets with their own sub-Protoculture native species seem to be treated as normal colonies in Macross Delta, so the only odd man out should be Zola... which was never colonized because of the native microorganisms being extremely unpleasant for human anatomy.


Henyo wrote:another is about teams/Squadrons in general. how many VFs does a usual team have? the original Skull Squadron only had three. M Frontier initially had 4.
That would seem to depend on the individual organization... and possibly on branch of service.

The (New) UN Forces habitually organize their variable fighter squadrons into platoons, where each platoon consists of three or four aircraft. (Yes, the official translation does use the word "Platoon" in English.) A fighter squadron seems to be five or more platoons. Platoons in the original series, like Skull Squadron's Vermilion Platoon, seem to have had just three fighters... which may be attributed to wartime recruitment limits and attrition, though the published org chart does suggest that's the normal size for the period. Skull Squadron's command platoon (Skull Platoon) in the movie was four aircraft though, and four seems to be the norm thereafter... like Alto's Saggitarius Platoon near the end of Frontie.

Strategic Military Services (SMS), being staffed mainly by ex-NUNS aces and those trained by them, appear to use the same platoon-based organization... though apprently without the squadron level of organization above it. (As above, the offiical English translation provided for this level of organization was "Platoon".)

Xaos seems to break the mold somewhat, and may be modeling themselves more on a modern Air Force rather than a Navy's air forces. Seen onscreen, and in official subs, their fighters are organized into Flights (4-6 aircraft).


Areku wrote:Unless there's a detail about fleet composition that I'm forgetting and can't find by a few quick searches, that doesn't help us very much; do we know what particular service Arad was in? He called it the 77th Air Wing in Ep.17, but I don't remember him ever clarifying if he was local or federal; does "77th Air Wing" help us narrow anything down?
It's not especially helpful, no... since the Japanese term used can refer to a unit as small as just two fighter squadrons and their accompanying administrative support.

The one thing it does tell us is that Major Wright Immelmann may have been serving in the New UN Spacy Air Force at the time. (It's possible to transfer, or be transferred, between branches of service... as Isamu did several times... as the UN Forces or New UN Forces appear to be modeled more heavily on the Japanese military, which is more "corporate" than the US military and permits that kind of thing.)
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:10 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:As seen in previous shows, just because the federal forces are calling the shots doesn't necessarily mean their troops are actually present.
I haven't seen 7 yet, but were senior federal personnel present in those circumstances, seemingly serving as the captain or flag officer of a ship or flotilla? Because the man who seems to be calling the shots in Ep.15's battle was present in Valan's teleconference, seemingly being the most important of the group and receiving an uncharacteristically respectful "yes Sir" salute from Valan; based on what we've seen of Valan, he seems pretty impertinent toward anyone not in his chain-of-command, so this commander seems like an immediate superior. Based on the 10 visible ships (5 jamming-equipped Northampton-classes, 2 jamming-equipped Stealth Cruisers, 2 Guantanamo-classes and the Uraga-class the commander was likely on), it would seem the commander was on the Uraga.

Considering Arad's remark that central sent orders, not reinforcements, and Valan can be seen withdrawing with a formation that's pretty similar to the one in Ep.15, I'm inclined to agree that they were local forces. Is the involvement of Valan and the other commanding officer consistent with what you're referencing? Also, I notice a number of fairly distinguishable insignia on the uniforms of the bridge crew in Ep.15; are any of them distinctly federal or local?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:27 pm

Areku wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:As seen in previous shows, just because the federal forces are calling the shots doesn't necessarily mean their troops are actually present.
I haven't seen 7 yet, but were senior federal personnel present in those circumstances, seemingly serving as the captain or flag officer of a ship or flotilla? [...]

Considering Arad's remark that central sent orders, not reinforcements, and Valan can be seen withdrawing with a formation that's pretty similar to the one in Ep.15, I'm inclined to agree that they were local forces. Is the involvement of Valan and the other commanding officer consistent with what you're referencing?
Actually, given the few examples in Macross 7 and some of the games and manga titles, to take command of the taskforce personally like that is uncharacteristically hands-on for the federal brass who isn't explicitly the villain of the series (ala Colonel Todo or General Garland). Normally they dispense directives from the comfort of an office a good distance behind the lines via viewscreen, usually depicted either as slightly callous, risk-averse bureaucrats or as the grumpy seen-it-all veterans there to dispense the bad news that upsets the main characters.


Areku wrote:Also, I notice a number of fairly distinguishable insignia on the uniforms of the bridge crew in Ep.15; are any of them distinctly federal or local?
They look the same as the insignia used by the Frontier fleet NUNS... mostly just NUNS kites and some rank insignia.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:13 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:Kaos was originally an interstellar communications firm, but expanded and diversified into other industries including msuic production and private military contract services. Kaos's PMC operation provided supplemental defenses for many planets in the Brisingr cluster, and also provided Var syndrome control and response services via their Tactical Sound Unit Walkure. (Now that they've basically screwed up so royally the entire cluster is in enemy hands, they will likely have a hard time finding customers...)
Do we know when Kaos started to branch into music production and PMC operation? In particular, I'm interested in whether or not they branched into those sectors during/after the events of Frontier but before Winderemere's war for independence. You probably know where I'm headed with this.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:49 pm

Areku wrote:Do we know when Kaos started to branch into music production and PMC operation? In particular, I'm interested in whether or not they branched into those sectors during/after the events of Frontier but before Winderemere's war for independence. You probably know where I'm headed with this.
Exactly when they got into music production is unclear, but they seem to have been operating a PMC for quite a while... possibly several decades.

Their first Tactical Sound Unit, however, was established in 2062.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:10 pm

Thanks for the prompt response, Seto Kaiba.

I see. That's about when I'd expect them to start the TSU, as it's a countermeasure against the Var that we now know couldn't have been a problem before the end of Frontier. It occurs to me that the more relevant question for me to ask is: What do we about the Epsilon Foundation and their activities? I'm particularly concerned with their activities through the past decade, especially in the year between the end of Frontier and the Windermerian war of independence. Also, do we know of any involvement between their companies and either SMS or Kaos (beyond what Ep.19 mentions)?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:52 pm

So I guess this newest ep kind of told us that the Draken's engineers/designers were leftovers from the re-unification war's SV-51? That might explain the model number then, unless I read that the wrong way.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Wingnut » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:22 am

Nope. The guy clearly made a link way back to the SV-51 there during his holographic powerpoint presentation there.
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