The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:31 pm

Red Zaku wrote:http://imgur.com/wg3dC0x

http://imgur.com/a6iywCn

http://imgur.com/shCHfYi

Anyone have any clue what that VF is? It looks like the Siegfried, but the wings aren't forward swept and the canopy looks like it's got a solid armor plate over it. Like it might use cameras for projecting the plane's surroundings like the old YF-21, and the VF-27.
That is a VF-31A Kairos, the mass-production version of the VF-31 from which Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfrieds were customized.

It's used by the other three platoons aboard the Macross Elysion: Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

In practice, it's basically the mass-production version of the YF-30 Chronos.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Red Zaku » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:09 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Red Zaku wrote:http://imgur.com/wg3dC0x

http://imgur.com/a6iywCn

http://imgur.com/shCHfYi

Anyone have any clue what that VF is? It looks like the Siegfried, but the wings aren't forward swept and the canopy looks like it's got a solid armor plate over it. Like it might use cameras for projecting the plane's surroundings like the old YF-21, and the VF-27.
That is a VF-31A Kairos, the mass-production version of the VF-31 from which Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfrieds were customized.

It's used by the other three platoons aboard the Macross Elysion: Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

In practice, it's basically the mass-production version of the YF-30 Chronos.
I actually think I like that design better than the VF-31s used by Delta, though, still not a huge fan of the stabilizer placement being so far from the fuselage. Any clue what the marking is on the wings? Is that a symbol for the Macross Elysium, or for NUNS?
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by iguanaman8989 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:31 pm


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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:51 pm

Red Zaku wrote:I actually think I like that design better than the VF-31s used by Delta, though, still not a huge fan of the stabilizer placement being so far from the fuselage. Any clue what the marking is on the wings? Is that a symbol for the Macross Elysium, or for NUNS?
That's the corporate logo of Kaos, the interstellar mega-corporation that the protagonists all work for.

Kaos was originally an interstellar communications firm, but expanded and diversified into other industries including msuic production and private military contract services. Kaos's PMC operation provided supplemental defenses for many planets in the Brisingr cluster, and also provided Var syndrome control and response services via their Tactical Sound Unit Walkure. (Now that they've basically screwed up so royally the entire cluster is in enemy hands, they will likely have a hard time finding customers...)

They're the same basic type of outfit as SMS, which was a private military founded by an interstellar shipping firm to protect its shipments that eventually branched out into providing supplemental armed forces for emigrant fleets.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:(Now that they've basically screwed up so royally the entire cluster is in enemy hands, they will likely have a hard time finding customers...)
To be fair, from their perspective they were treating (and minimizing damage from) micro-outbreaks of an unknown space virus, only for it to turn out the actual problem is a fold-based bioweapon being used as one front in an archeological war being waged by an entire militaristic planet. That's more of a NUNS-scale problem, and their solution to the problem is to nuke their own planets in an ineffectual scorched [Ragna] policy. Kaos seems like the best option to me, especially since they've been able to adapt to the problem quite nicely for a force as small as they are.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:59 am

So a question has occurred to me, and its answer could either be mundane or very significant for future events in Delta.

In Ep 4, Walkure's multidrones and fold wave amplifiers are jammed by the Aerial Knights. In Ep 5, Makina and Reina can be briefly seen making modifications to the multidrones. From that point on, the Aerial Knights make no apparent effort to repeat their E-War dominance.

It seems to me that there may be a mole fairly close to, or even within, Kaos or Walkure. Presumably, whatever modifications Reina and Makina made to the multidrones, and likely the fold wave amplifiers as well, were known only to them, but they didn't seem to be concealing the fact that they were making those modifications in the first place. The fact that the Aerial Knights never attempt to jam their systems again, at least on-screen, indicates both that they were aware that private modifications had been made and that their previous success had been dependent on detailed knowledge of frequencies/equipment/security; if either of those assumptions were false, the Aerial Knights would have attempted to jam them again.

With that in mind, my question is whether or not we know anything about the use of multidrones or fold wave amplifiers outside of Kaos/Walkure. If they're widely used throughout, say, NUNS, then it's possible that the Aerial Knights' initial exploit was based on knowledge of common systems (though it begs the question how they knew about the modifications), but if Kaos/Walkure designed their own systems and doctrine, it seems we're dealing with a mole quite close to the central cast.

Of course, it could be that they simply didn't show the Aerial Knights failing to jam the systems in Ep 6, but I don't think this is the case. In Ep 4, the AK drones responsible for jamming clearly have special dorsal-mounted equipment, but the same pilots who launched those drones in Ep 4 have drones with standard equipment in Ep 6. This seems to indicate that even before the AKs arrived to the battle in Ep 6, they knew their jamming efforts would fail.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

I assumed that they did the whole "Why would the same little trick work twice?" and didn't bother.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:39 pm

ChaoticSheep1 wrote:I assumed that they did the whole "Why would the same little trick work twice?" and didn't bother.
That would be a pretty immature approach to warfare. To help put it in perspective, American aircraft carriers currently carry ~75 aircraft (including helicopters and transport planes) as their Carrier Air Wings, and 5 of them are EA-18G Growlers. The Growler is a variant of the F/A-18F Super Hornet that has had various electronic warfare equipment built into the plane itself, rather than carrying it as external equipment, and it fulfills the Electronic Attack role that we're discussing in Delta. In fact, the Electronic Attack role has been deemed so important that there are plans to expand the Growler's role from 5 planes per CVW to 8 planes, and the role is expected to become even more important over time as the relevant equipment is improved and miniaturized, allowing a fighter-like platform to field increasingly powerful equipment. For example, the US Air Force is seeking to fulfill a similar role with the CHAMP missile, which uses precise, high-power microwaves to destroy enemy sensors and electronics (having effects similar to a precision EMP strike).

To call jamming/Electronic Attack a "trick" is quite an oversimplification, and it would be very foolish for the Aerial Knights to abandon an entire spectrum of aerial warfare just because they've already successfully employed it once. Also, if they only expected they'd be able to employ it once, why waste it on a simple reconnaissance mission? Their objective in Ep 4 was to scan the ruins to make sure they were suitable to their needs; why not save their "trick" for a more important operation?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:03 pm

Areku wrote:To be fair, from their perspective they were treating (and minimizing damage from) micro-outbreaks of an unknown space virus, only for it to turn out the actual problem is a fold-based bioweapon being used as one front in an archeological war being waged by an entire militaristic planet. That's more of a NUNS-scale problem, and their solution to the problem is to nuke their own planets in an ineffectual scorched [Ragna] policy. Kaos seems like the best option to me, especially since they've been able to adapt to the problem quite nicely for a force as small as they are.
Eh... sort of.

Given what we're told of Var syndrome in the series, the job Kaos had been contracted to do was to suppress mass outbreaks of a highly dangerous ailment that causes mob violence and had a rather nasty tendency to affect military personnel. If it'd stayed that way, Kaos would be off the hook for having lost Ragna and the rest of the Brisingr cluster.

The reason it's all going to land in their laps is that, not long after Windermere's declaration of war, the autonomous government of Ragna renegotiated its contract with Kaos to expand Kaos's area of responsibility to include planetary defense. The government of Ragna was paying them to prevent Windermere from annexing their planet and the neighboring systems... and they failed. They also made it immeasurably worse for themselves by impeding the New UN Forces' plans to prevent the annexation of Ragna and then taking the Elysion off on a Leeroy Jenkins counterattack against the Windermerean fleet. The best case scenario would've had them outnumbered over a dozen to one and probably losing both the Elysion and Walkure. The worst case scenario would've seen Elysion joining the enemy fleet. The only reason they got off scott free is King Gramia trolled them all by luring them to Al Shahal and then legging it to Ragna.

That's not gonna look good to future prospective clients... "We lost a star cluster we were hired to protect, and only survived because our commander is so bad at his job he's known far and wide as being "the commander who will lose 100 of 100 battles". (They literally call him that in the show.)




Areku wrote:So a question has occurred to me, and its answer could either be mundane or very significant for future events in Delta.

In Ep 4, Walkure's multidrones and fold wave amplifiers are jammed by the Aerial Knights. In Ep 5, Makina and Reina can be briefly seen making modifications to the multidrones. From that point on, the Aerial Knights make no apparent effort to repeat their E-War dominance.
My suspicion, based on the order of certain events in the series, is that the Aerial Knights no longer see the jamming system as a significant tactical advantage. The one time they employed it, it only took Walkure's weakest members out of the fight. Freyja and Mikumo are both powerful enough to suppress Var syndrome at range without mechanical amplification, and Kaname, Makina, and Reina were never a serious threat to begin with. Berger Stone and Epsilon Group have also been making refinements and improvements to the mechanical amplification system in Heinz's song shrine, and that's put enough punch behind his song to totally overpower Walkure in the short term.

(Heinz appears to be a fairly weak Wind Singer, or possibly is not actually a REAL Wind Singer even though the glossary on the official website says that trait runs primarily in the royal family. Freyja's no blueblood, but she appears to be the rare, powerful Wind Singer not born into the royal family.)


Areku wrote:With that in mind, my question is whether or not we know anything about the use of multidrones or fold wave amplifiers outside of Kaos/Walkure. If they're widely used throughout, say, NUNS, then it's possible that the Aerial Knights' initial exploit was based on knowledge of common systems (though it begs the question how they knew about the modifications), but if Kaos/Walkure designed their own systems and doctrine, it seems we're dealing with a mole quite close to the central cast.
To the best of our knowledge, the MDP-001W Cygnus multidrone plate appears to be a system that's unique to Kaos and Walkure. Similar drone systems exist in civilian markets, as seen at Al Shahal's spaceport cargo yard, but they're much more mundane pieces of technology.

Now, as far as fold-wave amplifiers... what's used by Walkure is likely a much more specialized and sophisticated version of a fairly mundane technology. Fold waves are used by many technologies in the Macross universe, like fold-wave radar and fold communications systems. Fold waves are also used in certain countermeasure systems (d-pulse bursts) and in the operation of dimensional beam weapons and the trigger mechanisms of warheads using heavy quantum (like thermonuclear reaction warheads and dimension eaters).

If I had to guess, I would assume that the Windermerean countermeasure is nothing fancier than a d-pulse burst system mounted on a drone... and that the Cygnus multidrone plates simply weren't hardened against fold-wave countermeasures.


Areku wrote:That would be a pretty immature approach to warfare.
To be entire fair, the Windermereans are admittedly not the most mature or rational species in the galaxy... that they apparently blame humanity for the losses they incurred from a war they started and a dimension weapon they illegally employed against the New UN Forces shows that pretty well.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:13 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:That is a VF-31A Kairos, the mass-production version of the VF-31 from which Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfrieds were customized.

It's used by the other three platoons aboard the Macross Elysion: Alpha, Beta, and Gamma.

In practice, it's basically the mass-production version of the YF-30 Chronos.
So I got curious as to what "Kairos" means exactly. It sounded Greek, and when I ran it through Google Translate it gave me the Greek "καιρός", and it gave me two definitions: "weather"...and "time".

Which is actually thematically consistent with the VF-31 being a mass-produced version of the YF-30, as "Chronos(χρόνος)" also means "time", albeit the words do differ slightly in application.

Just a little tidbit I found interesting.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:47 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:Given what we're told of Var syndrome in the series, the job Kaos had been contracted to do was to suppress mass outbreaks of a highly dangerous ailment that causes mob violence and had a rather nasty tendency to affect military personnel. If it'd stayed that way, Kaos would be off the hook for having lost Ragna and the rest of the Brisingr cluster.

The reason it's all going to land in their laps is that ... Ragna renegotiated its contract with Kaos to expand Kaos's area of responsibility to include planetary defense. They also made it immeasurably worse for themselves by impeding the New UN Forces' plans to prevent the annexation of Ragna and then taking the Elysion off on a Leeroy Jenkins counterattack against the Windermerean fleet.

That's not gonna look good to future prospective clients... "We lost a star cluster we were hired to protect, and only survived because our commander is so bad at his job he's known far and wide as being "the commander who will lose 100 of 100 battles". (They literally call him that in the show.)
You raise some excellent points, but I feel your description misses the bigger picture. In Ep 6, Mirage asks Arad if NUNS will be sending reinforcements, and he replies that he strongly doubts it because NUNS likely sees the ordeal as a minor skirmish over territory and that they have their own troubles to deal with. Mirage is a junior who I wouldn't expect to be involved in that kind of decision making, so this conversation likely lags behind the thought processes of Kaos and the Ragnan government prior to the contract renegotiation. We later get confirmation that Arad's take on the situation was correct in Ep 12, where NUNS' response, after it becomes clear how serious the problem has become, is a crude scorched earth policy rather than proper reinforcements (and even that seems to have an ulterior motive, but we don't know how deep that corruption runs and it's unknown to the cast anyway). Additionally, Johnson's loss-rate moniker was only brought up in the context of his preference for underdogs; it's implied that the name comes from the sides he chooses, not from his lack of skills as a commander.

Taking it all together, it seems to me that the Ragnan government found themselves with their back against the wall in Ep 5 and desperately renegotiated their contract with Kaos because they had no other credible recourse to adequately defend themselves. Based on what we (well, admittedly, I) know of Kaos, it seems clear that the scope of the new contract vastly exceeds the scope of what anyone should expect them to be capable of, but it does sound like the kind of contract I'd expect to be developed between a government trying to hobble together as much military strength as possible and a PMC that's trying to do the morally correct thing in their neck of the woods. That they'd fail against some pretty stacked odds isn't something I'd expect to ruin their reputation; rather, they've proven they'll stick through a losing battle (and they've had some serious losses) rather than abandon their sworn obligations. That's gotta count for something.

I think it's also worth specifying that Kaos is not the only organization participating in the Windermerian conflict; at the absolute minimum, NUNS forces already stationed in the area are getting their asses kicked right alongside Kaos.
Seto Kaiba wrote:My suspicion, based on the order of certain events in the series, is that the Aerial Knights no longer see the jamming system as a significant tactical advantage.
Perhaps, but that'd still be foolish of them. Based on Ep 4, it didn't look like their jamming doctrine impaired their other combat capabilities in any significant way; it occupied the drones of their least skilled pilots, and that jamming run was the only time we've seen those two do anything useful with their drones. Freyja and Mikumo presented themselves as major threats to Heinz' effectiveness back in Ep 8. Had the Aerial Knights been equipped with (adequate) jamming equipment in Ep 10, they could have soundly defeated Delta/Walkure when Mikumo/Freyja and Heinz incapacitated each other; instead, Kaname was able to plot-hax Messer into inflicting serious damage to most of the AKs and holding off Keith (if it weren't for the sacrificial use of the drone, Keith may have been the one painting his cockpit red, but who knows if that was strategy or reflex).

But as you say, the Windermerians don't seem to have a mature take on the realities of warfare, so maybe their incompetence could explain the situation regardless of whether or not they knew about Reina and Makina's upgrades.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:25 am

Dark Duel wrote:So I got curious as to what "Kairos" means exactly. It sounded Greek, and when I ran it through Google Translate it gave me the Greek "καιρός", and it gave me two definitions: "weather"...and "time".

Which is actually thematically consistent with the VF-31 being a mass-produced version of the YF-30, as "Chronos(χρόνος)" also means "time", albeit the words do differ slightly in application.
Yeah, I brought this same point up on MacrossWorld when the VF-31A's name first came to light... it's definitely a case of meaningful names.

It remains to be seen what significance the Kairos name will have in-story... but if it's anything like the Chronos's significance to Macross 30, it'll be fairly obvious.

Amusingly, the custom version (Siegfried) is also an obvious meaningful name... though this time it's Norse/Germanic. Siegfried being the Germanic equivalent of Sigurd, a Norse mythical figure known for, among other things, slaying a dragon. Not coincidentally, the Windermerean fighter is named Draken, Swedish for "Dragon".

(There's a LOT of Norse mythological references kicking around in Macross 30 and Macross Delta... usually connecting the Protoculture to Norse deities, and almost all of which are given fairly meaningful in-story significance. Seems a safe bet Windermere is the same way... they're in the role of Fafnir.)
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:39 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:(There's a LOT of Norse mythological references kicking around in Macross 30 and Macross Delta... usually connecting the Protoculture to Norse deities, and almost all of which are given fairly meaningful in-story significance. Seems a safe bet Windermere is the same way... they're in the role of Fafnir.)
Sigh... I was getting ready to make a joke about Siegfried being a meta-reference/jab to that other mecha anime, Fafner, but no, you had to go and ruin it by invoking the name seriously.

In all seriousness, though, Siegfried is a very fitting name for Kaos' mechs if you infer Windermerian society/leadership as the greedy, toxic and self-destructive Fafnir, driven mad by its own treasure; even the other theme of "time" fits my theory that Roid's goal is to prolong the Windermerian lifespan, coveting what the other Protoculture "descendants" take for granted.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:40 am

Areku wrote:You raise some excellent points, but I feel your description misses the bigger picture. In Ep 6, Mirage asks Arad if NUNS will be sending reinforcements, and he replies that he strongly doubts it because NUNS likely sees the ordeal as a minor skirmish over territory and that they have their own troubles to deal with. Mirage is a junior who I wouldn't expect to be involved in that kind of decision making, so this conversation likely lags behind the thought processes of Kaos and the Ragnan government prior to the contract renegotiation.
You missed one detail... Major Arad implies that it's politically difficult to deploy the federal New UN Forces in a conflict between emigrant worlds. It's not hard to see why, given that the government's relationship to its member states went from being an almost abusively powerful federation to being essentially a loose politico-economic union like the EU. They can't intervene whenever they want if they'll come off looking like they're playing favorites among member nations (worlds) in an internal conflict or be seen "bullying" an unaffiliated alien world for withdrawing from the government. The local New UN Forces, being something like a national guard militia, are left to pick up the pieces in pretty much any situation where the federal forces don't have a clear cause to intervene.

Given what previous Macross titles have told us about the federal New UN Forces hogging the best technology for themselves and only exporting stripped-down versions of their equipment to all the emigrant worlds and fleets, they could probably settle the entire conflict pretty quickly if they'd actually get off the dime. (That'd end the story right quick... and wouldn't be any fun.)


Areku wrote:We later get confirmation that Arad's take on the situation was correct in Ep 12, where NUNS' response, after it becomes clear how serious the problem has become, is a crude scorched earth policy rather than proper reinforcements (and even that seems to have an ulterior motive, but we don't know how deep that corruption runs and it's unknown to the cast anyway).
Whether it's corruption at all seems to be rather unclear... but the federal New UN Forces took the minimalist way out and opted to just blow up the essential objective in Gramia's plan before all his forces could muster to claim it. It's left to the viewer, for now, if he was collecting data for a future counterattack or because there's some ulterior motive there.

You have to admit, had it not been for that deus ex machina on Windermere's part, the federal New UN Spacy's plan would've effectively killed Gramia's plan dead.


Areku wrote:Additionally, Johnson's loss-rate moniker was only brought up in the context of his preference for underdogs; it's implied that the name comes from the sides he chooses, not from his lack of skills as a commander.
Considering he's getting outmaneuvered by somehow he freely admits was a terrible student, that moniker may be more deserved than he's willing to admit.


Areku wrote:Taking it all together, it seems to me that the Ragnan government found themselves with their back against the wall in Ep 5 and desperately renegotiated their contract with Kaos because they had no other credible recourse to adequately defend themselves. Based on what we (well, admittedly, I) know of Kaos, it seems clear that the scope of the new contract vastly exceeds the scope of what anyone should expect them to be capable of, but it does sound like the kind of contract I'd expect to be developed between a government trying to hobble together as much military strength as possible and a PMC that's trying to do the morally correct thing in their neck of the woods.
This is where the show starts to lose me... the New UN Spacy in the Brisingr cluster seems to be way weaker than it should be based on all previous info.

In theory, each of the twenty-one identified planets in the Brisingr cluster should have been settled independently by a separate emigrant fleet. None of these planets seem to have more than two or three dozen warships for defense, even though they should have hundreds by now. Ragna should have had nearly two hundred from the moment it was first settled.

Windermere was discovered in 2027 by Megaroad-04, and by 2037 the average fleet strength of an emigrant world was 73 ships. Emigrant worlds have the means to build their own new warships for their own defense, and many fleets possess the means as well without even needing a planet. The fleet that discovered Ragna was one of the initial New Macross-class emigrant ships (it has to have been either Macross-1 or Macross-2 based on design) and those didn't go anywhere without a fleet of well over a hundred warships of various classes. Macross-7 had a fleet of 194 ships, and it was one of the smaller ones! Some of those fleets led by New Macross-class ships had more than one Battle-class supercarrier with them. If it was Macross-1 that found Ragna, then its defense fleet ought to have FOUR Battle-class supercarriers chilling in orbit. Even if the fleet was split up and used to colonize four different worlds, that's still one Battle-class for each.

Where the hell did those fleets go?

Windermere only seems to have two or three dozen warships to its name... and a good number of those seem to have been lost to Major Valan's reaction warhead. The New UN Spacy ought to be more than capable of curbstomping the Aerial Knights even without the intervention of the federal forces.

Yet somehow Macross Elysion is presented as being the most powerful warship Ragna has, despite being almost comically weak compared to the Battle-class ships.


Areku wrote:But as you say, the Windermerians don't seem to have a mature take on the realities of warfare, so maybe their incompetence could explain the situation regardless of whether or not they knew about Reina and Makina's upgrades.
Captain Johnson, at one point, remarks that Gramia was absolutely terrible as a commander because his tactics were all influenced by his obsession with fairplay and chivalry. It's possible that the Aerial Knights are still trying to get over their obsession with gallantry and see disabling the enemy's singer without killing them as unsporting.

Keith seems to take it far enough to kill Messer so he can "die as himself" instead of as a braindead slave to Var syndrome, and even chastises Hayate for borrowing Messer's Valkyrie... saying that he isn't worthy of that plane.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:12 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:Yet somehow Macross Elysion is presented as being the most powerful warship Ragna has, despite being almost comically weak compared to the Battle-class ships.
How do you figure? The Elysion is not that much smaller than the Battle-class IIRC, and hasn't really done much of anything since launching yet.
However, its pin-point barrier tanked a shot from the Windermere ship's main gun pretty effortlessly, and its Macross Cannon blasted through the enemy ship's own pinpoint barrier just as effortlessly to inflict some damage to its superstructure, which ended up killing King Old Fart.
It ain't much, but IMO certainly not "comically weak".

Also, you have to consider that the Windermere ship is gigantic, far larger than the Elysion or, for that matter, anything else the NUNS or Kaos might have militarily.
IMO, it appears to be at minimum the size of a New Macross colony ship(The "City" part).
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:40 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:You missed one detail... Major Arad implies that it's politically difficult to deploy the federal New UN Forces in a conflict between emigrant worlds. It's not hard to see why, given that the government's relationship to its member states went from being an almost abusively powerful federation to being essentially a loose politico-economic union like the EU. They can't intervene whenever they want if they'll come off looking like they're playing favorites among member nations (worlds) in an internal conflict or be seen "bullying" an unaffiliated alien world for withdrawing from the government. The local New UN Forces, being something like a national guard militia, are left to pick up the pieces in pretty much any situation where the federal forces don't have a clear cause to intervene.

Given what previous Macross titles have told us about the federal New UN Forces hogging the best technology for themselves and only exporting stripped-down versions of their equipment to all the emigrant worlds and fleets, they could probably settle the entire conflict pretty quickly if they'd actually get off the dime. (That'd end the story right quick... and wouldn't be any fun.)
I freely admit that I don't know much about the minutia and nuance of the interrelationship and evolution of the terms NUG, NUNS and Spacy and to what extent organizations sharing those names may be less a cohesively structured singular entity than decentralized government/military planetary organizations that all share the same darn name, so I'll take the general thrust of your description at its word. That out of the way, let's discuss what we have happening...

Forty years ago, a colony fleet arrived at Windermere (briefly shown in Ep 5), which was already inhabited. They attempted to draft a trade agreement with the planet's inhabitants, and presumably they also made an effort to settle on part of the planet and integrate their society with Windermere's. The Windermerians thought these efforts were disingenuous and unfair, and 33 years later they fought a war of independence from their settlers and/or the NUG/NUNS/Spacy/whatever at large. As it has been described several times throughout the show, that war ended in an armistice and Windermere asserting its independence; at this point, it's clear Windermere is not part of any form of NUG/NUNS/Spacy, decentralized/semi-autonomous or not.

Fast forward another seven years, this independent planet has nullified their armistice by openly declaring war against the NUG and declaring an intent to drive them out of the Brisingr Cluster (Ep 4), and they're violating other planets' (which are part of NUG/NUNS/Spacy/whatever, decentralized or not) sovereign territory, blowing up those planets' military forces in their own territory without provocation, and are using a new wide-scale bioweapon capable of mind-control to accomplish their objective.

So... what exactly are you proposing is tying NUNS' hands? If there's even a shred of a mutual-defense clause between emigrant planets (again, something Windermere no longer qualifies as) and central NUNS forces, they aren't just not prevented from intervening in the conflict, they're obligated to intervene. This isn't a spat between member planets over resources in neutral territory; this is a series of violent invasions and occupations by an external entity. Central Spacy wouldn't be bullying a former member, they'd be defending current members from a bully former member.

To make an imperfect comparison, this situation has a lot in common with the continuing tensions on the Korean peninsula and the theoretical situation of resuming hostilities, with Windermere = North Korea, Brisingr cluster = South Korea, and more loosely, Central Spacy = America. Technically, the Korean War never ended (also an armistice), and if North Korea launched a major offensive against South Korea, America would have a pretty hard time finding a way to stay out of it.

I'll quote the translation I've seen of Arad's answer, feel free to share another that clarifies your point: "I wouldn't bet on it. They probably think this is some minor conflict between frontier planets. Not to mention they have their own stuff to worry about. Politics is tough."

To me, this doesn't imply Spacy's legal or bureaucratic inability to intervene, it implies Spacy's reluctance to get off their asses (the gist of his response seems to be centered around the word "minor"). They're either so incompetent that they see reports of bioweapon mind-control invasions by an external entity that's directly declared war against them and mistake it for an internal squabble, or they simply give too few craps to do anything more than shrug their shoulders at the problem; whether this is out of effort-vs-reward logistical concerns or a lack of political conviction, it's ultimately a matter of not caring. Whatever the case, they aren't taking the situation anywhere near as seriously as the residents of the cluster, bringing us back to my original point that the Ragnan government has turned to Kaos in desperation, unrealistic contract in hand.
Seto Kaiba wrote:Whether it's corruption at all seems to be rather unclear... but the federal New UN Forces took the minimalist way out and opted to just blow up the essential objective in Gramia's plan before all his forces could muster to claim it. It's left to the viewer, for now, if he was collecting data for a future counterattack or because there's some ulterior motive there.

You have to admit, had it not been for that deus ex machina on Windermere's part, the federal New UN Spacy's plan would've effectively killed Gramia's plan dead.
NUNS Major Valan, smugly, upon seeing his organization's sole effort to protect the Brisingr cluster fail spectacularly: "So this is what the scientists were talking about? We've got the data, retreat immediately."

Valan clearly doesn't care about what happens to the region he's ostensibly charged with defending; whether or not he represents those who issued his orders remains to be seen, but he, at least, has ulterior motives.

Also, his explanation of the plan went something like this:
"We're going to blow up the thing the invaders are coming for."
"That thing is connected to the planet's core, we don't know what blowing it up could do to the planet. It might cause severe changes in the planet's crust."
"It's okay, we'll use a shaped charge. There shouldn't be much collateral damage to the atmosphere."

He doesn't seem very concerned about how badly things could go if his scientists were wrong, and he dodges the question about geological damage by framing his response around the atmosphere. Not exactly the person I would want setting off WMDs on my planet!

So, let's assume it worked as advertised. Would the Windermerians go:
"Oh, you blew up the thing we came for. Let's abandon our stated goal of kicking the NUG out of the cluster, ignore all of the ruins we've captured on other planets, forget about the strategic advantages we hold with our mind-control bioweapon and superior military might, and go back home to wait for NUG's retribution."

I doubt it, but that seems to be what you're suggesting they'd do. Sure, it would probably put a serious wrinkle in their over-arching strategy, but blowing up the ruins would be a delaying tactic at best. Without a more serious commitment to actually defeat Windermere, blowing up the ruins may have done more harm than good.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:48 pm

Dark Duel wrote:How do you figure? The Elysion is not that much smaller than the Battle-class IIRC, and hasn't really done much of anything since launching yet.
... not sure where you got the idea that the Macross Elysion was that big.

Officially, the Macross Elysion is just a hair over twice the size of the SMS Macross Quarter from the Macross Frontier series. All dimensions considered, she's about 1/2 the size of a first-generation Macross-class warship, and about 1/3 the size of one of the initial Battle-class supercarriers. The whole Macross Elysion is roughly the same size as the gunship docked with the Battle 7.


Dark Duel wrote:However, its pin-point barrier tanked a shot from the Windermere ship's main gun pretty effortlessly, and its Macross Cannon blasted through the enemy ship's own pinpoint barrier just as effortlessly to inflict some damage to its superstructure, which ended up killing King Old Fart.
It ain't much, but IMO certainly not "comically weak".
The converging beam cannon turrets surrounding the bridge of the Sigur Valens don't seem to be that allfired powerful either. Even when all four are firing together, they're pretty evidently not in the same power class as the heavy converging beam cannon of a Zentradi Army gun destroyer or a first-generation Macross-class ship. If I had to guess, I'd say their combined firepower is on a similar level to the bow-firing cannon on a Queadol Magdomilla-class battleship, and we know that level of firepower is within a pinpoint barrier's ability to "tank".

Neither of these ships seems to be anywhere near the firepower of the "main gun" systems from a real Macross-type warship or one of the larger Zentradi ships. Those guns are so powerful a shot doesn't even need to hit a ship to destroy it... just being within a few hundred meters of that beam is enough to shred ships. Battle-7's macross cannon one-shotted an entire fleet which was roughly the same size as Windermere's, and it wasn't even firing at full power.

That's the kind of redonkulous power level difference I'm talking about here. What we see from the Elysion is basically a glorified deck turret from a Battle-class.


Dark Duel wrote:Also, you have to consider that the Windermere ship is gigantic, far larger than the Elysion or, for that matter, anything else the NUNS or Kaos might have militarily.
IMO, it appears to be at minimum the size of a New Macross colony ship(The "City" part).
That's also not quite true.

The Sigur Valens is definitely a couple kilometers long, and it definitely outclasses anything the Kaos flotilla has going for it... but the New UN Spacy has plenty of ships of similar scale. They have plenty of Zentradi fleet command battleships kicking around, and historically those aren't even close to being the biggest warships in the (New) UN Spacy's arsenal. The Varauta colony built a massive anti-fleet warship to be their system defense flagship... you would know it as Gepernich's flagship in Macross 7... which was 4km across and outguns the Sigur Valens's presently-displayed abilities by a MASSIVE extent, with eight macross cannons, a large number of smaller beam turrets, and a whopping 192 10 gigaton-class anti-fleet reaction missiles.




Areku wrote:So... what exactly are you proposing is tying NUNS' hands? If there's even a shred of a mutual-defense clause between emigrant planets (again, something Windermere no longer qualifies as) and central NUNS forces, they aren't just not prevented from intervening in the conflict, they're obligated to intervene. This isn't a spat between member planets over resources in neutral territory; this is a series of violent invasions and occupations by an external entity. Central Spacy wouldn't be bullying a former member, they'd be defending current members from a bully former member.
Among other factors, I would assume that one of the chief obstacles to an armed intervention by the federal New UN Spacy would be the very high probability of Windermere responding to that dramatic show of overwhelming force by escalating the conflict with reaction or dimension weapons. They not only likely possess the means to produce these weapons themselves, but they also control stockpiles of those restricted weapons maintained by the local New UN Forces of each captured planet.

Despite being less "scary" than dimensional warheads, thermonuclear reaction warheads are nothing to sneeze at. They're a LOT more scalable than conventional nuclear weapons and they don't have a lot of the nasty radiological consequences associated with nuclear weapons because they use gravity manipulate instead of a fission warhead to kick-start the reaction. The bomb the New UN Spacy had used to destroy the ruins on Ragna was a TINY one, probably only a few megatons. These can have yields of multiple gigatons. You end up in a shooting war where both sides have reaction weaponry and everybody's gonna have a bad time... and never mind the political implications of killing people with nuclear fire. It takes a lot of political calisthenics to get approval from the government to use reaction weapons for any purpose, let alone to launch into unrestricted reaction warfare... and even moreso when it'll be New UN Spacy forces on both sides.

Political suicide, really... and all all-too-likely outcome when the enemy is Windermere, who have a reputation for indiscriminately blowing up allies and enemies alike with overtechnology WMDs.


Areku wrote:So, let's assume it worked as advertised. Would the Windermerians go:
"Oh, you blew up the thing we came for. Let's abandon our stated goal of kicking the NUG out of the cluster, ignore all of the ruins we've captured on other planets, forget about the strategic advantages we hold with our mind-control bioweapon and superior military might, and go back home to wait for NUG's retribution."
Sort of... remember, Windermere needed the ruins to maintain their mind control. If Heinz kicks the bucket, they can't maintain it without those ruins.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:23 am

They could be working on technological replacement for Heinz, which would eliminate their need in Wind Singer altogether.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:28 am

Still need to watch the latest episode, but my main question right now pertains to Hayate and the VF-31.
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As by now I'm sure we all know(though I'm spoiler-tagging it just in case), in Ep13 Hayate's VF-31J was destroyed, and he soon afterward "borrowed" the late Messer's VF-31F.
This in itself amuses me because of the "Delta-02" and "Delta-04" markings on the -31F and Mirage's -31C, which is the inverse of their respective callsigns in that sortie(Mirage as "Delta 2", Hayate being addressed as "Delta 4") - but that's immaterial.

My main question, really, is whether Hayate will continue to operate the -31F(which I think is likely), and whether it will retain its black color scheme and "Grim Reaper" markings, or whether its color scheme will be changed to reflect its new pilot. The latter, while IMO fairly unlikely, is not entirely unprecedented - a machine being recolored after passing on to a new pilot has happened before, IIRC.

I'm biased, because I liked the blue/purple color match between the -31F and -31C, which I felt was a nice callback to the blue/red color pairing of Mirage's grandparents. So I would prefer to see the -F sporting a blue color scheme. But honestly, the black/purple color match works fine too, so I'd be happy either way.
I'm really mainly just curious as to what y'all think.

One other comment: much as I like the -31J's almost Nirvash-esque head design, I do also think the -31F has a really interesting head design - Looked somewhat asymmetrical, which you don't see that often IMO.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Mecha Thread Mk I

Post by azrael » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:47 am

Dark Duel wrote:Still need to watch the latest episode, but my main question right now pertains to Hayate and the VF-31.
....

I'm really mainly just curious as to what y'all think.

One other comment: much as I like the -31J's almost Nirvash-esque head design, I do also think the -31F has a really interesting head design - Looked somewhat asymmetrical, which you don't see that often IMO.
I don't think it will change. At least story wise. There will likely be a animation mistake here or there as there was in Episode 13.
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Right now, I don't think they are in a position to take the time to repaint Messer's 31F to Hayate's 31J colors. They're on the run from the Windermerans with limited provisions. Repainting a VF should be the last thing on their minds. Making sure the fighters are combat ready takes precedent.
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