What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

[Erisie]

Now, we are assuming the kits are talking about locking sabers, which we don't see much of. We do see them blocking one another, but not necessarily locking together like you see in other Gundam shows a lot.

What's the difference, exactly?

Also, does this have anything to do with Kira doing that Star Wars stunt of bouncing back beam shots with the saber?

[Product9]

What's the difference, exactly?

Also, does this have anything to do with Kira doing that Star Wars stunt of bouncing back beam shots with the saber?

Duration. Locking sabers means you are locked together trying to use physical force to overcome your opponent. Blocking or parrying is just momentary contact to deflect a blow away from yourself.

Since presumably there would be little to no friction between the blades, as well as no hilt guards, the blades would probably just slide right off one another rather than locking together.

And Kira blocking the beam shots with his saber is something different. To be fair, he never bounced any of them back like a Jedi would.

[domino]

We can only assume that Kira's beam sabers were strong than the beams shot at him so that's why they nullified the beam shot upon contact.

Unlike in UC where beam sabers (or spinning beam sabers) have blocked beams thanks to their I-fields, we can only guess that Kira was literally countering a beam with another beam - and kept getting lucky that each shot was completely nullified even as they approached him from different angles.

[Product9]

We can only assume that Kira's beam sabers were strong than the beams shot at him so that's why they nullified the beam shot upon contact.

Unlike in UC where beam sabers (or spinning beam sabers) have blocked beams thanks to their I-fields, we can only guess that Kira was literally countering a beam with another beam - and kept getting lucky that each shot was completely nullified even as they approached him from different angles.

Well however the sabers work, there is something generating the force that keeps the beam that forms the blade from just flying off into space. Presumably, that something is strong enough to block a shot from a beam cannon as well.

My guess is that the tech that powers beam shields and beam sabers is one in the same.

[BrentD15]

Also too! Since people were talking about the Strike Rouge kit manual (without specifying which kit in particular), I just took a look at the Perfect Grade series kit manuals. The PG Strike Rouge manual reiterates the usual explanation about how its beam sabers use the same magnetic field fixation technology developed for use with Mirage Colloid, but then goes on to add that beam sabers can't be used for traditional sword-against-sword blocking because the blades tend to "slip through" (すり抜ける). That's why CE mobile suits use anti-beam shields for blocking instead.

That was intriguing but vague. Is the manual saying that the saber blades literally pass through each other?

The PG Astray Red Frame kit manual is a bit more helpful. It specifically explains that beam sabers can't be used for locking swords using the hilt guard (鍔追り合い), which is a standard sword-fighting technique in which the guard prevents the blade you're blocking from sliding over and cutting off all your fingers.

-- Mark

Yep.
And that's why most saber clashing is saber-to-shield (or beam shield).
Hell, even Dynasty Warriors Gundam Reborn does this with the CE Units.

We can only assume that Kira's beam sabers were strong than the beams shot at him so that's why they nullified the beam shot upon contact.

Unlike in UC where beam sabers (or spinning beam sabers) have blocked beams thanks to their I-fields, we can only guess that Kira was literally countering a beam with another beam - and kept getting lucky that each shot was completely nullified even as they approached him from different angles.

Well however the sabers work, there is something generating the force that keeps the beam that forms the blade from just flying off into space. Presumably, that something is strong enough to block a shot from a beam cannon as well.

My guess is that the tech that powers beam shields and beam sabers is one in the same.

And that's the magnetic field.
Either that, or the beam has a short projection range before dissipating.

[Product9]

And that's the magnetic field.
Either that, or the beam has a short projection range before dissipating.

How the heck would it go from full power to full dissipation in the span of half a meter?

Electromagnetic field would be the go to fluff, but it's still a mystery how they shape it without having coils around the field.

Not that it matters. Beam sabers never made sense to begin with.

Even so, electromagnetic fields can repel fields of like charge (or attract opposite charge), but the lack of friction would cause the sliding issue the manual seems to be talking about.

In any case, the blades don't just pass through one another. It was a misunderstanding that has now been quashed.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The problem with that explanation is that it is not how antimatter works. Annihilation would happen immediately after the antimatter leaves its container. It wouldn't be able to travel enough to create a beam before encountering the first atmosphere molecules immediately in front of the Minerva.

Close, but not quite. A positron in a Lohengrin or Tannhauser would annihilate immediately upon encountering an electron. I've always thought that the two-tone beam color displayed by positron cannons in the CE timeline was supposed to be indicative of a positron-beam "core" surrounded by a positively-charged ion beam "shell". That would theoretically go a long way toward ensuring that most of your positrons actually reach your target. It wouldn't be perfect (thus why you see the trail of small explosions on the outer edge of the positron beam when it's fired in atmosphere), but it'd certainly help.

Of course, this thread has pointed out that all sufficiently powerful beam weapons have the two-tone effect, so who knows. Another possibility is that the business end of a positron cannon is hardened against gamma radiation, and they simply pump out enough positrons so that they annihilate all the electrons in the air between the cannon and the target, providing a "tunnel" of electron-free space for the positrons to safely travel through. The only effective shielding against gamma radiation is distance and mass, but the fact that positron cannon barrels are both on the extreme forward of the ships they're mounted on (thus as far away from the crew as possible) and outside of the armor (thus with as much mass between them and the crew as possible) mean that they're not in too bad a position as far as that goes. Of course, the skin of the ship would undoubtedly get really hot from the backblast, but that's another really good reason to put them outside the armor.

[Product9]

Another possibility is that the business end of a positron cannon is hardened against gamma radiation, and they simply pump out enough positrons so that they annihilate all the electrons in the air between the cannon and the target, providing a "tunnel" of electron-free space for the positrons to safely travel through.

I can't remember, but didn't Archangel use the Lohengrin to create some kind of effect that helped them escape the atmosphere? I haven't seen that episode in ages, so I don't remember what it was the Lohengrin did to the air, and I'm too tired to make assumptions right now.

And I'm pretty sure that's how the positron cannons work in atmosphere. After all, 5 positrons aren't all going to annihilate with 1 electron.

[Erisie]

I can't remember, but didn't Archangel use the Lohengrin to create some kind of effect that helped them escape the atmosphere? I haven't seen that episode in ages, so I don't remember what it was the Lohengrin did to the air, and I'm too tired to make assumptions right now.

There was an old thread about the subject and its conclusions were that the boosters use the Lohengrins for "positronic interference". In layman's terms, they use the positrons to vaporize the air in front of the Archangel, creating a vacuum cone that allows the ship to leave the atmosphere faster.

There's also this image by Kimitoshi Yamane (mechanical designer for spacecraft in SEED), which supposedly explains how the boosters actually work. Commonly, I'd parse it through OCR software and run Google Translate on the resulting text in order to get a grasp of what it says, but no OCR tool takes kindly to hand-written text. Especially Asian characters, with lots of colors on the background...

And I'm pretty sure that's how the positron cannons work in atmosphere. After all, 5 positrons aren't all going to annihilate with 1 electron.

No, 1 positron annihilates itself with 1 electron. Both of them cease to exist (annihilation) and transform their combined masses into 100% pure energy in the form of Gamma rays, as per the old Einstein formula: energy = mass x c^2.

[Product9]

No, 1 positron annihilates itself with 1 electron. Both of them cease to exist (annihilation) and transform their combined masses into 100% pure energy in the form of Gamma rays, as per the old Einstein formula: energy = mass x c^2.

An electron-positron annihilation usually produces two or more gamma ray photons, as well as other particles. There are some special cases I've read about, but I'm no physicist. The resultant particles conserve momentum by separating in different directions, or so I've read.

Air in Earth's atmosphere isn't very dense, which is why the positron beam can travel, even though it has destructive side effects. But as soon as that beam hits something that is more dense, the energy release is not so easily shrugged off.

Thanks for the explanation about the Lohengrin. Maybe if there's a person here who can read that material they would be willing to help. That image looks pretty cool - is there a higher res version?

[Erisie]

An electron-positron annihilation usually produces two or more gamma ray photons, as well as other particles. There are some special cases I've read about, but I'm no physicist. The resultant particles conserve momentum by separating in different directions, or so I've read.

Wrong. An electron-positron annihilation produces pure energy. What you're probably thinking of is proton-antiproton annihilation, which generates some energy, but also a lot of non-reactive particles.

Air in Earth's atmosphere isn't very dense, which is why the positron beam can travel, even though it has destructive side effects. But as soon as that beam hits something that is more dense, the energy release is not so easily shrugged off.

Air is pretty dense, at least as it is related to potential antimatter reactions:

At 0 meters above mean sea level, and at 15 °C, Earth's atmosphere has a density of approximately 1.225 kg per cubic meter (0.0765 pounds per cubic foot).

Remember that you'd only need a single pesky electron to trigger positron annihilation. And that cubic meter of air has over 2 quadrillion individual atoms (2.65 x 10^25) in it.

Thanks for the explanation about the Lohengrin. Maybe if there's a person here who can read that material they would be willing to help.

I'm hoping for that as well, Product...

Also, as I said before, I'm convinced that the Tannhäuser is orders of magnitude more powerful than the Lohengrin, in any of its forms. The beam impact, while powerful, is much more modest than when the Minerva fires its cannon.

That image looks pretty cool - is there a higher res version?

I edited the post and uploaded the high-res image to Imgur. Didn't know that the Gundam Wiki would redirect to the thumbnail...
As a happy coincidence, I also found this (non-official) chart explaining how the Archangel's booster works. Here's the original website, in case you want to pay a visit.

[Product9]

Wrong. An electron-positron annihilation produces pure energy. What you're probably thinking of is proton-antiproton annihilation, which generates some energy, but also a lot of non-reactive particles.

Take it easy. Photons are also particles.

Other particles besides gamma ray photons can be produced depending on the conditions.

Electron Positron Annihilation Wikipedia Article

I know Wikipedia isn't a universally trusted source, but I think it's trustworthy enough when discussing the physics of Gundam...

But I think we've gone pretty far off topic. The Tannhauser explodes the air because of annihilation, that much is obvious. We can also assume the number of positrons outnumber the electrons in the air the beam is passing through, otherwise the beam wouldn't get anywhere. And we can further assume that solid or liquid targets have far more electrons than the positrons in the beam, which is why there is a large explosion and the lack of penetration.

As for the Tannhauser being more powerful, I can't think of any examples. The Lohengrin Gate comes to mind, but that was a special case. I guess you could probably say the Archangel's two Lohengrins are comparable to the Minerva's single Tannhauser, but that would be a pretty big assumption. Are there any numbers to back any of this up?

Also, that picture is awesome, as is that unofficial description image.

I find this kind of refreshing, because if this was UC they'd just say "Minovsky particles, and don't ask why."

Or they'd use psycoframe rainbow magic.

[Erisie]

Other particles besides gamma ray photons can be produced depending on the conditions.

Particle-antiparticle reactions are very finicky. There's all those elementary particles to consider. For instance, positrons and protons do annihilate each other, but only under certain circumstances.

But I think we've gone pretty far off topic. The Tannhauser explodes the air because of annihilation, that much is obvious. We can also assume the number of positrons outnumber the electrons in the air the beam is passing through, otherwise the beam wouldn't get anywhere. And we can further assume that solid or liquid targets have far more electrons than the positrons in the beam, which is why there is a large explosion and the lack of penetration.

To take that example of the Tannhäuser impacting the water in the Freedom/Impulse fight, water has a density of 10^29 atoms per cubic meter. The beam itself must be dense enough to annihilate with water, but pass through atmosphere more or less intact.
Those positrons, however, must maintain some form of coherence before reaching their target. I'm going to speculate in regards to that and Destiny's positron reflectors: coherence (whether as an offensive beam or a defensive shield) is maintained with the same kind of magnetic field that holds plasma together in a beam saber. Note that these positron reflectors are a form of energy shield, but they're, somehow, not the same as the MS-carried beam shields developed by ZAFT, nor the force field generated by the Akatsuki's DRAGOONs.

As an interesting note, I found out about an exotic, unstable type of atom called positronium, which is basically an electron and a positron sharing the same orbit. A university in London operates, believe it or not, a real positronium beam for research.

As for the Tannhauser being more powerful, I can't think of any examples. The Lohengrin Gate comes to mind, but that was a special case. I guess you could probably say the Archangel's two Lohengrins are comparable to the Minerva's single Tannhauser, but that would be a pretty big assumption. Are there any numbers to back any of this up?

Can't help you with numbers, but the animation in both series shows the Lohengrins more or less as a powerful form of beam. The Tannhäuser, meanwhile, is almost apocalyptic in nature. Its impact with the Gells-Ghe's reflector generated a freaking mushroom cloud and a wind gust strong enough to throw mobile suits around like paper dolls. Something similar happened on the moon during the attack on Requiem. And we already discussed enough about the Impulse/Freedom fight.

Also, that picture is awesome, as is that unofficial description image.

I wish I had more information about it. The only clue I was able to gather with OCR is, I think, a name: Funato Jun'ni (船戸潤二). Searching on Yahoo! Japan only comes back with results about magazines: Dengeki Hobby, Hobby Japan, etc.

I find this kind of refreshing, because if this was UC they'd just say "Minovsky particles, and don't ask why."
Or they'd use psycoframe rainbow magic.

Well, the Cosmic Era isn't completely free of that. Mirage Colloid turns things invisible, infects computers with viruses and can bend beams both offensively and defensively.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Wrong. An electron-positron annihilation produces pure energy.

Gamma rays are a form of electromagnetic radiation, which is "pure energy", as they're composed of photons, which are massless. So you're both correct. A positron-electron annihilation does produce pure energy... in the form of two gamma ray photons.

[Product9]

Those positrons, however, must maintain some form of coherence before reaching their target.

In atmosphere it could use a laser induced plasma channel or something like that. In a vacuum it wouldn't be as much of an issue, though blooming would be a problem to overcome for all beam weapons.

As an interesting note, I found out about an exotic, unstable type of atom called positronium, which is basically an electron and a positron sharing the same orbit. A university in London operates, believe it or not, a real positronium beam for research.

I'm not crazy into particle physics, but I may have to read about that as it sounds quite interesting.

Can't help you with numbers, but the animation in both series shows the Lohengrins more or less as a powerful form of beam. The Tannhäuser, meanwhile, is almost apocalyptic in nature. Its impact with the Gells-Ghe's reflector generated a freaking mushroom cloud and a wind gust strong enough to throw mobile suits around like paper dolls. Something similar happened on the moon during the attack on Requiem.

This is true, but we didn't get many examples of Archangel's Lohengrins being used in atmosphere, or against large targets. Although they did use them to blast a hole in Heliopolis, but one wonders if the output is variable or if it's an all-or-nothing WMD.

The Lohengrin Gate is a different story, though. We get a flashback scene of it shooting at the ground with little effect, but that may have been an oversight in the animation. When they shoot at Minerva the shock waves generated are enough to rattle them pretty good, though the effect of the beam is quite different in appearance. Maybe there is something else going on there.

I wish I had more information about it. The only clue I was able to gather with OCR is, I think, a name: Funato Jun'ni (船戸潤二). Searching on Yahoo! Japan only comes back with results about magazines: Dengeki Hobby, Hobby Japan, etc.

There has to be someone here who can help with that. I certainly wouldn't mind some more trivia to think about.

Well, the Cosmic Era isn't completely free of that. Mirage Colloid turns things invisible, infects computers with viruses and can bend beams both offensively and defensively.

It's not devoid of it, but the difference is that in the UC that is what they use to explain literally everything. Every new breakthrough, every weapon and piece of equipment is based on Minovsky Particle physics.

I much prefer when fictional technologies naturally follow developments in the real world to some extent, rather than just creating new physics and phoning it in for 35 years.

[Product9]

Gamma rays are a form of electromagnetic radiation, which is "pure energy", as they're composed of photons, which are massless. So you're both correct. A positron-electron annihilation does produce pure energy... in the form of two gamma ray photons.

Thanks, Kirby

I'm trying to force the pedant in me to just leave it at that. Moving on...

[Kuruni]

^ Our message board has edit function, use it.

[Product9]

^ Our message board has edit function, use it.

Fair enough, but I'm not the only person to have double posted in the last couple pages of this thread. I figured if one did without anyone caring, then I could without anyone caring. Editing posts in the middle of an active discussion can cause confusion.

I guess I was mistaken.

[Kuruni]

At least other double-post in previous page are at least a hour apart, your is a minute.