The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Phonix_1
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:51 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
The Kairos was intended to replace the Nightmare Plus entirely in the entire New U.N, right, or just the Macross fleets and the planets if they choose to? If the first is the case, then how expensive can a Kairos be, and how hard to learn using it? Because as I see it, the reason why the Nightmare Plus is still there in Delta is because the Messiah is too expensive, too hard to fly, and for places not expecting war, an entirely wasteful invesment.
Kaiba and I discussed many things about VF-31A at this thread for few pages, from deployment scale to spec, you can go back to previous pages to read them.

The exact price of a VF is almost never mentioned on screen, so as VF-31.
However, Master File VF-31 (non-canon, it is just for a little reference) mentioned that the only thing barred Xaos to deploy VF-25 was the price. So, VF-31A should be cheaper than VF-25, a VF-25 Lite.

Also, Brisingr Cluster is an outer rim backwater cluster, it is reasonable that they are still flying VF-171.
Don't forget that the 57-years-old F-4 is still in service with some countries. :lol:
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
(And how many percentage dropped in performance between the Durandal and the Kairos anyway?)
YF-29 (w/o FAST Pack) has a total thrust of 7150 kN, while that of VF-31A is very close to VF-25, 3290 kN.
Max G-Load for YF-29 is 32.5G, 28G for VF-31A.
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
And anyone here know why did they choose the name New Unified Government anyway? I means, is it just me only, or does the New sounded superfluous?
New means the UN was reformed at 2051, after the centralist was defeated and 2nd Space War was over.
Last edited by Phonix_1 on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:03 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
The Kairos was intended to replace the Nightmare Plus entirely in the entire New U.N, right, or just the Macross fleets and the planets if they choose to? [...]
Based on the official sources, the Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos is set to replace the already long-obsolete General Galaxy VF-171 Nightmare Plus as the main variable fighter of the local New UN Forces maintained by the worlds of the Brisingr Alliance. It's slated to go into service there at some point in 2069 or 2070.

They might be able to export it to worlds and fleets that haven't already upgraded to one of the other 5th Gen VF designs... though by 2070 those are likely to be few and far between, with the earliest transitions starting back in 2057 and most starting to transition in the early 2060s.


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
If the first is the case, then how expensive can a Kairos be, and how hard to learn using it?
Barring one formerly pseudo-canon technical manual that actually set a dollar price to the Block 4 VF-1A*, cost is something that has only ever been expressed in relative terms. Such as the VF-171 being three times the cost of the AIF-7 Ghost, or the VF-1 costing 20x as much as a Destroid from the same period.

5th Generation VFs as a whole are noted to be significantly more expensive than the VF-171, which was the least expensive 4th Generation VF... and the VF-31 Kairos is implied to be something of an economized model, built to use as many off-the-shelf parts as possible.

The learning curve is supposed to be reduced somewhat by the application of EX-Gear standardizing the cockpit interface and providing a more intuitive interface with more precise control.


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
Because as I see it, the reason why the Nightmare Plus is still there in Delta is because the Messiah is too expensive, too hard to fly, and for places not expecting war, an entirely wasteful invesment.
Even though the VF-31 Kairos was not intended for use by anyone apart from the Brisingr Alliance New UN Forces, that's still partly accurate.

Y'see... the Brisingr Alliance's local New UN Forces are still flying the old Block II VF-171 Nightmare Plus in 2067 because the Brisingr cluster is an economically underdeveloped region due to its [isolation/remoteness]. Their decision to develop their own 5th Generation VF locally instead of purchasing export models or buying a license that would let their local factories build an existing design is almost certainly an attempt to stimulate their own economy instead of increasing their trade deficit. They did it on the cheap too, using as many off-the-shelf bits that they could. If you'll forgive a joke at Yukikaze's expense, the Brisingr Alliance NUNS is less "Brokeback Air Force" and more "Broke Air Force".

No official source has suggested the VF-25 is too expensive or anything like that, and it's supposed to be a fairly easy aircraft to handle thanks to the introduction of EX-Gear, and reportedly many emigrant fleets and planets have adopted it as their 5th Generation main fighter.


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
(And how many percentage dropped in performance between the Durandal and the Kairos anyway?)
The YF-29's thrust-to-weight ratio is around 157% that of the VF-31 Kairos's... so it's a heck of a drop. The VF-31's performance is slightly below the VF-25's. Mind you, the YF-29 is so bank-breakingly expensive and resource-intensive that virtually nobody outside the federal forces could afford to build more than one.

The difference is much less severe in terms of Inertia Store Converter buffer capacity. Only about 5%, with the YF-29's being rated for 30.0G, and the VF-31's being rated for 28.5G. The max structural frame loadings are unknown, but the YF-29's actual maximum acceleration is about 25% greater (40G vs ~30.5G).


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:03 am
And anyone here know why did they choose the name New Unified Government anyway? I means, is it just me only, or does the New sounded superfluous?
It's "New" because it's not the first one.

The original Earth Unification Government that was formally inaugurated in early 2001 was wiped out in the First Space War in 2010 along with everyone living on Earth's surface.

The New Unification Government is the new government that was inaugurated in April 2010, once the war ended and the survivors started to pick up the pieces and plan the planet's restoration and humanity's emigration to the rest of the galaxy. The military reorganized to become the New UN Forces starting in May 2010, and ending at a date that hasn't been specifically identified in 2011, during which it assumed responsibility for space emigration fleet operations.

(Per Kawamori, the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces have been a thing since ~ep28 of the original series... they just forgot to add the "New" when they made Macross Plus and Macross 7.)



Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:51 am
New means the UN was reformed at 2051, after the centralist was defeated and 2nd Space War was over.
Nah, the first references to the "New UN Government" are in the original series' "two years after" arc.

Kawamori himself specifically refuted the notion that the events of Macross VF-X2 were the cause of the government's decentralization into its present state in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta back in an interview he did in Otona Anime magazine.



* Macross Journal Extra: Sky Angels VF-1 Valkyrie Special Edition was the first VF-1 Valkyrie tech manual, and gave both the program cost and flyaway cost for a pre-DYRL? VF-1A. The numbers are a lot less intimidating in the modern day than they would've been back in 1984 when the book was published, since it predates the escalation of costs that came with the 5th Generation fighter jets in the real world. The VF-1's program cost was $50 billion, with the individual aircraft costing $126 million... slightly more than the modern 5th Gen F-35 Lightning II (engine included), but by 1984's standards the VF-1 at that price point would've seemed huge at over three times the cost of a state-of-the-art 4th Generation multirole fighter, and almost seven times the cost of some.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:03 pm
Nah, the first references to the "New UN Government" are in the original series' "two years after" arc.

Kawamori himself specifically refuted the notion that the events of Macross VF-X2 were the cause of the government's decentralization into its present state in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta back in an interview he did in Otona Anime magazine.
I never read the original article on Otona Anime, so I don't know the exact words he used in the interview 9 years ago.
The only version I can find is a summary translated in Chinese (with unknown accuracy, since the reason mentioned above) from a BBS based at Taiwan and I suspect that some descriptions about New Macross class in Japanese Wiki might be taken from that issue of Otona Anime.

https://pttread.com/macross/m-1218304177-a-254
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0 ... E.E4.BC.9A

The summary has 11 points and some of them are also mentioned in Japanese Wiki.

1: The reason behind reforming UN into NUN is humanity has already spread too far away from Earth, it is impossible for keep all colonies in line. The event in VF-X2 "is not totally responsible for this reformation".

2: Earth is still here, however it is more like a symbol.

3: All planets and fleets becomes independent countries, no more single currency, there are exchange rates between the currencies from different planets.
(Japanese Wiki mentioned that all planets and fleets are under the rule of NUN with a high degree of autonomy, they can even issue their own currencies. They are similar to the regional states or city-states in the past and very close to independent countries.)

4: There are dozens of colonization fleets and their flagships ranges from Megaroad, New Macross, Island Cluster to non-Macross classes.

5: Some colony ships are used for multiple times.

6: Zentradi-only colonization fleets exist behind the scene.

7: Implant technologies are only allowed in recent years, there are still places like Frontier that bans implant for non-medical usage.

8: Companies influencing the fleets becomes more common.
(Also appears in Japanese Wiki)

9: Fold fault was discovered by the advances in observation technology.

10: Fold-com goes faster than fold travel, but it takes almost a year for a message to reach all corners of the galaxy.

11: Sheryl is being forgotten because of this and her V-Type Symptom.

If the war totally unrelated to the decentralization, Kawamori simply threw consistence away or forgot VF-X 2 and all the novels would be non-canon, as Kodachi set up so many things based on the conflicts before reformation of UN into NUN.

2nd Space War (2nd Union War in Delta novel)
Ractence
Treaty of Ormond (both TV and novel mentioned it, while the description in novel sounded like a peace treaty and the ban on certain weapons or tactics might give a glimpse of that war.)
Barnrose Organization (Boss of VF-X in F TV Version novel, nickname of NUNS Intelligence Agency?)
Fasces

Even Kodachi said the Macross novels he wrote could be see as "the same historic event from another viewpoint", "historic drama", some elements from his novels were mentioned in Macross Chronicles, like Ozma joined UNS after dropped out from high school and Isamu flew YF-24 in tests, the novels still got some canonicity at least.

Kodachi used his license of different viewpoint too far and Kawamori didn't care about it, even though he was the supervisor?
Kawamori forgot VF-X 2 and other things?

The "Story within a story" status of Macross works is the last reason I would like use, since it ruins all the fun and makes all discussions meaningless, even though it can solve all inconsistencies.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
I never read the original article on Otona Anime, so I don't know the exact words he used in the interview 9 years ago.
The only version I can find is a summary translated in Chinese (with unknown accuracy, since the reason mentioned above) from a BBS based at Taiwan and I suspect that some descriptions about New Macross class in Japanese Wiki might be taken from that issue of Otona Anime.
Most of what's on the Japanese Wiki is straight out of Macross Chronicle... but that doesn't mean the same things aren't said in Otona Anime.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
The summary has 11 points and some of them are also mentioned in Japanese Wiki.
Weird that the points are out of order to the original article... most of them are dead on, but it's just weird that they're out of order.

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
1: The reason behind reforming UN into NUN is humanity has already spread too far away from Earth, it is impossible for keep all colonies in line. The event in VF-X2 "is not totally responsible for this reformation".
The interview doesn't put it in quite those terms... they refer to the existing government before the decentralization just as "the old government", and that the reason for the reorganization was that the population was too spread out for that style of government to unite the people. When asked about the attempted coup in a separate question, he replies that the idea that the coup was responsible for the changes in the government "no longer fit in with the realities of the Macross world".


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
(Japanese Wiki mentioned that all planets and fleets are under the rule of NUN with a high degree of autonomy, they can even issue their own currencies. They are similar to the regional states or city-states in the past and very close to independent countries.)
Later in the interview, Kawamori indicated the most comparable modern governing body to the New UN Government is the European Union. (In the same statement, he mentions that the distance between some colonies and Earth is such that it'd take ten years to make the trip one-way.)

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
4: There are dozens of colonization fleets and their flagships ranges from Megaroad, New Macross, Island Cluster to non-Macross classes.
He sprinkles the word "dozens" in there pretty liberally. There are, according to him, dozens of active fleets, including ones that have and don't have Macross-class ships. He also says there are dozens of Macross-class ships currently traveling in search of new colonies. In follow-up questions on that point, he elaborates on what ships they use for fleets that don't have a Macross-type ship.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
5: Some colony ships are used for multiple times.
He doesn't exactly say that... what he does say is instead of replacing ships in the field, they simply continue to add on to what the fleets already have, and that it's a losing proposition if you don't use the ship for a dozen or more years.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
6: Zentradi-only colonization fleets exist behind the scene.
This summary point appears to be a merger of two unrelated points.

He indicates there are colony fleets that are using converted Zentradi Army warships as emigrant ships, and that there have been approximately 100 such ships modified. (Macross Chronicle indicates these are used in short ranged emigrant fleet missions operating close to Earth, and that one such fleet was the one that discovered Eden in 2013.)

He also says, in a follow-up question, that there are some fleets where the colonist population is entirely Zentradi. He never says they're in the background though... I mean, who could forget Macross-5?

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
7: Implant technologies are only allowed in recent years, there are still places like Frontier that bans implant for non-medical usage.
He does say the ban on implants has recently been lifted (Chronicle and other sources put this at ~2048), but he doesn't comment on Frontier's ban on implant tech. (Other sources indicate Frontier's government restricts the use of implants partly for security reasons and partly because the ship is a bioplant sealed system and they'd like to keep the matter of recycling biomass as simple as possible.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
8: Companies influencing the fleets becomes more common.
(Also appears in Japanese Wiki)
Also, not exactly right... he says corporations have become a lot more powerful, and that some of them have more power than an emigrant fleet. Whoever summarized the article may have been interposing thoughts from other sources about how Frontier and Galaxy are both corporate-backed fleets.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
9: Fold fault was discovered by the advances in observation technology.
Also, close but not quite.

The actual statement is made by the interviewer, and affirmed by Kawamori, that humanity proved the existence of fold faults when humanity started examining Zentradi sensor systems that were already able to detect fold faults. Zentradi fleets themselves apparently ignore fold faults, since they don't fit neatly into their conditioned assessment behavior of "friend or foe".

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
10: Fold-com goes faster than fold travel, but it takes almost a year for a message to reach all corners of the galaxy.
Sort of. He says when it's slow it can take a few months, and when it's really bad it can take a year... and that fold faults play merry hell with the ability to maintain consistent fold communications.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
11: Sheryl is being forgotten because of this and her V-Type Symptom.
No, it's mentioned in the same part of the interview, but what they attribute Sheryl's decline in popularity to is that once the war started it was more difficult for her to promote herself because Galaxy Network usage was restricted.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
If the war totally unrelated to the decentralization, Kawamori simply threw consistence away or forgot VF-X 2 and all the novels would be non-canon, as Kodachi set up so many things based on the conflicts before reformation of UN into NUN.
As I noted before, the New UN Government is something that was first mentioned all the way back in the original series' postwar arc. (Ep28-36) It's explicitly referenced in the dialog of the series.

Instead of being the cause of the governmental reorganization, the matter with Latence is now a reaction to the gradual decentralization of governing authority. It still happened, and it's still on the official chronology, just the reasons for it are a bit different.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
Even Kodachi said the Macross novels he wrote could be see as "the same historic event from another viewpoint", "historic drama", some elements from his novels were mentioned in Macross Chronicles, like Ozma joined UNS after dropped out from high school and Isamu flew YF-24 in tests, the novels still got some canonicity at least.
The novels draw on some canon elements, but that doesn't make them canon in and of themselves... at least as far as things like the official encyclopedia and other official publications go. Kawamori's attitude differs, of course.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:56 am
The "Story within a story" status of Macross works is the last reason I would like use, since it ruins all the fun and makes all discussions meaningless, even though it can solve all inconsistencies.
Yeah, I'm not super happy with Kawamori's broad strokes attitude towards canon either, but Big West disagrees with him on that and they tend to be better at having the final word since they actually OWN Macross.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:12 pm

About the VB-6:

1) Can it fire its railguns in shuttle and battroid mode?
2) A Macross RPG site, Sketchley's Translations, lists it as having grenade crushers. Exactly where are they located?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:57 pm

hitokirigarou wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:12 pm
About the VB-6:

1) Can it fire its railguns in shuttle and battroid mode?
No and Yes, respectively.

The railguns are used as a plasma rocket propulsion system in shuttle mode, preventing them from firing normally. The main engines are needed to counterbalance the recoil of firing in Destroid mode.


hitokirigarou wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:12 pm
2) A Macross RPG site, Sketchley's Translations, lists it as having grenade crushers. Exactly where are they located?
... y'know, that threw me for a minute. I had to do some serious checking to see where he'd got the idea that there were additional missile launchers in the arms. Turns out that line item is drawn from the gameplay and guidebooks for Macross VF-X2. It's not a feature listed in the official specs for the VB-6.

The game's CG model and the game guidebook indicates the launchers are those small ports on either side of the arm's anti-ship/anti-ground heavy missile launchers on the side of the arm that is the "front" in GERWALK mode.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:44 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am
The interview doesn't put it in quite those terms... they refer to the existing government before the decentralization just as "the old government", and that the reason for the reorganization was that the population was too spread out for that style of government to unite the people. When asked about the attempted coup in a separate question, he replies that the idea that the coup was responsible for the changes in the government "no longer fit in with the realities of the Macross world".
Yet, home rule factions like Vidirance still needed a war to kick those hard-line centralists away from the government and right the wrong they did.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am
Later in the interview, Kawamori indicated the most comparable modern governing body to the New UN Government is the European Union.
Comparing NUN with EU while NUN could appoint Mishima as President's aide in the novel...as far as I know, EU can't appoint their officials to posts in the government of member states, right?
The interview was done at sometime before Aug 08, the novel that mentioned Mishima's status of being appointed by NUN Federal Government was released in Mar 09...

It sounded like Kodachi really used his license as much as can.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am
(In the same statement, he mentions that the distance between some colonies and Earth is such that it'd take ten years to make the trip one-way.)
It is hard to locate a habitable planet, but when colonists need to spend a decade in FTL before reaching their new home, is it still worth it in the first place?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am
Instead of being the cause of the governmental reorganization, the matter with Latence is now a reaction to the gradual decentralization of governing authority. It still happened, and it's still on the official chronology, just the reasons for it are a bit different.
So, he retconned the story of VF-X 2 from the coup of home rule factions into a conflict that repelled usurping(?) reactionaries away? :roll:
The only thing remain unchanged is unlucky VF-X, from being manipulated by nuke'em-all ruthless centralists to being manipulated by outdated reactionaries...

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:44 pm
Comparing NUN with EU while NUN could appoint Mishima as President's aide in the novel...as far as I know, EU can't appoint their officials to posts in the government of member states, right?
Key words being "in the novel"... the novels do not always rigidly follow the official series canon.

Mind you, this is a bit of a twofer in that what happened is modeled more on the Japanese government practices than the EU's, even though the Macross Frontier fleet government has a president instead of a prime minister. In Leon's case, the novelization offers indications that Leon's position was as much due to the influence of the fleet sponsor Richard Bilra as it was the New UN Forces. It's not clear if the appointing of an advisor was requested or simply imposed, but it's pretty evident Richard Bilra twisted some arms to get him appointed to the post of Chief Cabinet Secretary, making him third in line to the presidency. (The Chief Cabinet Secretary is third in line to be Prime Minister in Japan.)

The EU can't appoint its officials to oversee the militaries of member nations right now, but that could change if they ever pass that resolution to create a supranational European Army.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:44 pm
It is hard to locate a habitable planet, but when colonists need to spend a decade in FTL before reaching their new home, is it still worth it in the first place?
To find new exploitable resources and spread humanity across the galaxy so no one attack can wipe the species out? Yes it's worth it.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:44 pm
So, he retconned the story of VF-X 2 from the coup of home rule factions into a conflict that repelled usurping(?) reactionaries away? :roll:
The only thing remain unchanged is unlucky VF-X, from being manipulated by nuke'em-all ruthless centralists to being manipulated by outdated reactionaries...
It's still an attempted coup, and their goals are still the same... he just gave them a better-developed motive than "because we want to".
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:27 pm

Thanks, Seto Kaiba.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:43 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Mind you, this is a bit of a twofer in that what happened is modeled more on the Japanese government practices than the EU's, even though the Macross Frontier fleet government has a president instead of a prime minister. In Leon's case, the novelization offers indications that Leon's position was as much due to the influence of the fleet sponsor Richard Bilra as it was the New UN Forces. It's not clear if the appointing of an advisor was requested or simply imposed, but it's pretty evident Richard Bilra twisted some arms to get him appointed to the post of Chief Cabinet Secretary, making him third in line to the presidency. (The Chief Cabinet Secretary is third in line to be Prime Minister in Japan.)

The EU can't appoint its officials to oversee the militaries of member nations right now, but that could change if they ever pass that resolution to create a supranational European Army.
That old fox was a supporter of President Glass, I think that it was not too difficult for him to persuade(?) the president to appoint Mishima.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm
To find new exploitable resources and spread humanity across the galaxy so no one attack can wipe the species out? Yes it's worth it.
If the colonists were sent to that far, UN might have a hard time to find volunteers for colonizing the system. Not everyone wanted to say complete goodbye to their homes for good.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm
It's still an attempted coup, and their goals are still the same... he just gave them a better-developed motive than "because we want to".
I don't think that is better, the portrayal in VF-X 2 didn't quite fit into the retcon, especially for the existence of Ractence and Aegis' action to fight against it.

Aegis knew its existence for the first time after he shot down that Black Rainbow ace, I forget his name, Timothy? If Ractence was a reactionary group against the government at that time, VF-X might target and hunt them for a long time.

If Ractence was simply a reactionary cabal in government plotting a coup and manipulating VF-X to do their biddings, the first ally he and/or Gilliam should find might be not Vidirance, but other relatively reliable, incorrupted(?) UNS agencies.
It was like...your bosses were so corrupted and committing atrocities, you wanted to right the wrong, then you asked for help from some anti-government paramilitaries, without finding other potential allies around you...

They were not the best allies, who knows the price of recruiting them to fight against to centralists? Except Ractence had grown so powerful that they could command many or even most of UNS troops as they wanted, or the situation was so desperate that Gilliam and Aegis had no choice.

But assuming that Kawamori didn't forget VF-X 2, whatever he said is still canon.

And I found something on the net yesterday, perhaps I have blamed Sarge wrongly for VF-31A background on TomyTEC manual...
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:45 am

Say, does the fleets must register to NUNS first before they could develop any new weapons? Because when I think about the question of why the Variable Fighters designations are sequented, if the fleets are given complete freedom then it is possible that there are two or more unrelated VF (or more likely, YF) with the same designations running around at the same times, at two different fleets.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:00 am

hitokirigarou wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:27 pm
Thanks, Seto Kaiba.
At your service. :)




Phonix_1 wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:43 am
That old fox was a supporter of President Glass, I think that it was not too difficult for him to persuade(?) the president to appoint Mishima.
That old fox not-so-secretly bankrolled the Macross Frontier fleet's construction and its mission to explore around Vajra territory to find fold quartz for his own gain... Mr. Richard Bilra, the founder and CEO of the Bilra Transport company that controls a large share of interstellar shipping and established SMS to provide security for its convoys has a COLOSSAL amount of influence in the Frontier government.

Bilra Transport and General Galaxy are the kind of companies that Kawamori was talking about in the Otona Anime interview when he said there were corporations out there with more power than some governments.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:43 am
If the colonists were sent to that far, UN might have a hard time to find volunteers for colonizing the system. Not everyone wanted to say complete goodbye to their homes for good.
All told, the New UN Government has never really had a problem finding volunteers even though the fleets aren't being sent to known destinations and could spend over a decade wandering the stars before locating some suitable planet. No doubt some colonists are jumping at the chance to stake a claim to their planet's resources and thus become wealthy, while others may just enjoy the challenge or want to get away from a more crowded or less hospitable planet like Earth.

(By all accounts, most colonists come from Earth and Eden, and as you know Earth is not a very nice place anymore... the ecological recovery programs intended to restore the planet's biosphere to something close to its pre-war state are expected to take 10,000 years, which is probably why a good chunk of the system's population lives offworld on Luna, Mars, and in satellite cities orbiting Venus, Jupiter, etc.)




False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:45 am
Say, does the fleets must register to NUNS first before they could develop any new weapons? Because when I think about the question of why the Variable Fighters designations are sequented, if the fleets are given complete freedom then it is possible that there are two or more unrelated VF (or more likely, YF) with the same designations running around at the same times, at two different fleets.
As in the real world, the military generally won't assign an official designation to a new design until it has reached the demonstration/validation phase and there's actually a physical test article being built.

An emigrant fleet or planetary government under the New UN Government can freely develop new weapons for its local defense forces without oversight up to the point where they're ready to build a testable version of the weapon. Once they're ready to build a prototype, the law obliges them to disclose the details of the weapon's specs and capabilities to the New UN Government, though they are allowed to withhold the specs for proprietary technological advances at that phase. (Maj. Aisha Blanchett of SMS gamed the system using that limitation to keep the YF-30's Fold Dimensional Resonance system a secret as long as possible.) Once a new design is ready to enter production, they have to disclose the full specs to the New UN Government for examination and dissemination of technological advances, and the military gives it a final designation. (The Macross Galaxy fleet did not disclose the production spec for their VF-27, so the New UN Gov't considers the aircraft to still be "YF-27" in late 2059).

The 5th Generation VFs all have numbers grouped together because they all launched their development in relatively close order following the New UN Government sharing the specs for the YF-24 Evolution prototype in 2057. Their development was fast-tracked using the YF-24 spec as a starting point, so within a year they had viable prototype aircraft ready to fly.

Out of sequence designations can come about as the result of a project being developed independently of a military request for proposals and thus having an informal designation chosen by its developer, for symbolic value, or in one rare case because it was a captured enemy VF. (This is also a case of "reality ensues".)

The Sv-262 Draken III is an example of one where the design was developed independently of any military, and thus bears an informal designation from its developer... the Dian Cecht SV Works. Stonewell/Bellcom (later Shinsei) developed the VF-3000 as an informal rival/companion program to its own VF-4, and it later did the VF-5000 as a companion program for it... both had their official designations based on the informal company design numbers they were given during development. The VF-171 also had an in-joke designation to the fact that it was an enhanced VF-17 for mass production. The VA-110 Variable Glaug's designation is basically a nod to its status as a production version of a captured enemy fighter, as in the real world there are US-style designations given to captured enemy aircraft under Project Constant Peg (YF-110 was the one given to the MiG-21F-13).

In the event that two fleets are building different custom versions of a particular variant of an existing VF design, they put a region of origin in the designation. For instance, the VF-19C customization built by the Macross Galaxy fleet for its Pegasus Squadron was "VF-19C/MG21", to denote that it was a modification of the VF-19C specification made by/in the Macross Galaxy emigrant fleet (21st Super Large Scale Long Distance Emigrant Fleet).
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:39 am

Well, I just got my copy of the new Macross Variable Fighter Designer Notes book and there's lots of good stuff in here. For example, Wow, so according to some of the pre-production lineart the VF-25 was going to have the mother of all BFGs. You could blow up space colonies with this thing! Seriously, this thing looks like you could sodomize enemy warships.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:05 pm

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:39 am
Well, I just got my copy of the new Macross Variable Fighter Designer Notes book and there's lots of good stuff in here. For example, Wow, so according to some of the pre-production lineart the VF-25 was going to have the mother of all BFGs. You could blow up space colonies with this thing! Seriously, this thing looks like you could sodomize enemy warships.
Yeah, that stuff was previously printed in Kawamori's biography, The View Point of Visionary Creator.

For my money, it looks like someone swiped the design from a Rockman X game.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Gundam4Fun » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:14 am

Great story!

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