The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Phonix_1
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:38 pm
Hm... if you don't mind my asking, what language are the translations you're reading translating Japanese into? There may be a transliteration rule difference in play here. (Also, we want to be precise and make the distinction between the manufacturer of the pack and the equipment inside the pack.)

The specs I've seen for the SPS-31 Super Pack identify the manufacturer of the Super Pack system as being Hiotori Aerospace, a name which can be read as Feifeng Aerospace if you're reading it in Chinese. Various systems that were integrated into the pack were supplied by other companies: Bharat provided the rocket boosters and high-thrust verniers, while Bifors provided the missile launchers.

(This really has me wondering what the correct translation of the company name is, though. I'll see if I can find it written in kana or English somewhere.)
The original name of Feifeng is using a Chinese naming convention, so I translated it as Chinese.
航天 (Aerospace/Astronautics, later one is the literal translation) and 公司 (Company) are Chinese words. Aerospace and Company in Japanese should be 航空宇宙 and 会社 respectively.

If it is a Japanese name, the original would be something like 飛鳳航空宇宙工業カンパニー or 飛鳳航空宇宙工業株式会社.

I checked the manual, Bharat built just the verniers, booster on the legs and back came from Feifeng.
Making vernier for packs, then having a chance to produce a VF that is going to adopt service-wide, maybe there are really different VFs in future sequels, breaking the de facto duopoly of GG and Shinsei, after gaining experience from building VF-31.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:38 pm
Yeah, but the limitation on fold booster use was a durability factor, not really a materials-limitation one. There's been nothing, thus far, that suggests that the feats achievable via fold quartz can be duplicated using synthetic alternatives.
I heard about a theory that Protoculture had the technology to refine quartz, that's why there were quartz on Bird Human. Is this theory still valid?
If Protoculture could do this, given enough time, human may find method to do the same.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:38 pm
Every source to date has said that high-purity fold quartz is the core of the ISC, and that it's categorically impossible to build one without it. Given that the VF-31 is described as using a variant of the same ISC in the VF-25 with only minimal performance difference, I would expect that the technology inside it stayed almost exactly the same. Developing an ISC that didn't need fold quartz would be a colossal coup for the developer and eradicate most of the value of fold quartz, which wouldn't fit with the Macross Delta backstory's intense focus on how valuable and restricted the stuff is... and it'd certainly have been talked about in the official spec in the liner notes, which it isn't.
That certainly sends shockwaves to many industries, but I don't think it would be that colossal.
I would say it may be similar to the relationship of desktop computer and smartphone, PC for quartz-based ISC, smartphone for carbon-based ISC.
Smartphones are getting more powerful, yet even the most powerful smartphone is no match for the most powerful desktop computer from the same era, with the same technological level.

If carbon-based ISC has a capability of VF-25 ISC, for example, the quartz-based ones may perform much better than the carbon lite version.
Inferior material can do it well, then the superior ones can do it better.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:38 pm
That got my attention for rather a different reason... "FOLD WAVE SYSTEM CORE"?

Putting that aside momentarily, the description sounds like exactly what I'd expect. Fold wave projectors, like what the crystals in the same position on the YF-29 are identified as. (A system put on the YF-29 as a way of amplifying and directing fold song.)

The "fold wave system core" thing is a bit out of left field for the Siegfried. The official spec for the YF-29 Durandal identified those fold quartz insets behind the cockpit only as fold wave projectors, the four 1,000 carat pieces of fold quartz were explicitly identified as being elsewhere in the aircraft. They were located under the inset panels on the leading edge of the wing root and on the outside of the wingtip engine intake.

If the Siegfried's fold wave projectors are pulling double duty as the fold quartz core of the fighter's fold wave system, that would suggest the Siegfried uses good deal less fold quartz than even I suspected, and that would explain how Xaos can afford to field five of them when Macross Frontier could only afford the one YF-29... they're using one third as much fold quartz.
Maybe Xaos uses quartz smaller than the four on YF-29.

Though it is still not canon (Kodachi took material from Master File when he wrote The Ride), Master File VF-31 has mentioned a method to "enhance" the ability of the smaller, lower grade quartz.

By resonating some closely-placed (in certain configurations), specially-cut small quartz and manipulating the fold wave with song, Dr. Chiba could make these crystal groups give a performance suppressing that of FC.5, even reaching the level of FC.6/6+ was not impossible. All they need is a suitable singer.

I am not sure whether Chiba in real life read Macross 30 novel or not, being a biological singer is not a must for sing songs with fold wave. Macross 30 novel provided a wlid if not outlandish theory about Sharon Apple's hypnotizing songs: her song contained fold wave. :roll:
Yea, I know this is over-the-top, but it is still something comes from a canonical source.
If this theory is considered as true, it is not impossible than machine-generated waves can also do something similar.

Perhaps this enhancement can pushing carbon beyond their natural limits, enabling them to run carbon ISC like quartz one. I suspect that the reason of VF-31A having a specialized and visible carbon container is the size, it is too large to be fitted into the nose, where the ISC is located (if it is still installed at there like VF-25).
The enhancement also helps 5.5-Gen flying like a 6-Gen, if sufficient supports are avaliable.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
I checked the manual, Bharat built just the verniers, booster on the legs and back came from Feifeng.
Making vernier for packs, then having a chance to produce a VF that is going to adopt service-wide, maybe there are really different VFs in future sequels, breaking the de facto duopoly of GG and Shinsei, after gaining experience from building VF-31.
I'll have to see if I can find scans of the manual (I didn't buy the Super Pack kit in question) and check its contents against the other info we've got for the Super Pack... which is disappointingly sparse outside of Variable Fighter Master File. The information I've seen attributes all the rockets in the SPS-31 to Bharat and the pack itself to [Hiotori/Feifeng].


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
I heard about a theory that Protoculture had the technology to refine quartz, that's why there were quartz on Bird Human. Is this theory still valid?
If Protoculture could do this, given enough time, human may find method to do the same.
Ah yes, I remember that theory. It was a very popular one once the Macross Zero Blu-rays came out with Sheryl Nome's fold quartz earrings edited into Sara and Mao's little memorial to their parents. In the Macross Chronicle Worldguide Sheet for the Vajra (No.08A in the 1st edition, 24A in the 2nd) it was promoted from theory to fact.

The Worldguide Sheet for the Vajra mentions the Vajra and their abilities were studied extensively by the ancient Protoculture, and were the basis for many technological advances of theirs like energy conversion armor and heavy quantum reaction beam weaponry. It also casually, and almost in passing, mentions in a caption on a picture of the Bird Man that the Bird Man incorporated fold quartz made by the Protoculture. (Which implies the Bird Man's power source is a fold dimensional energy converter, like many of the larger Vajra have, and which the fold wave system imitates to a certain degree when active.)

It's not inconceivable that humanity will rediscover the means to producing fold quartz on its own, without needing to harvest it from Vajra carcassses or cannibalize old Protoculture devices, but Macross Chronicle also indicates that manufacturing fold quartz is beyond humanity's technological abilities at present.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
That certainly sends shockwaves to many industries, but I don't think it would be that colossal.
I would say it may be similar to the relationship of desktop computer and smartphone, PC for quartz-based ISC, smartphone for carbon-based ISC.
Smartphones are getting more powerful, yet even the most powerful smartphone is no match for the most powerful desktop computer from the same era, with the same technological level.
That's a totally different scale of technological performance problem.

Smartphone microprocessors and computer microprocessors are built on precisely the same technology and with the same materials. The only thing stopping smartphone processors from being as fast and capable as PC processors is the power and cooling requirements involved.

Being able to make fold carbon behave like fold quartz would be an ENORMOUS physics coup... like finding some way to make silicon-based transistors function stably at room temperature with the same speeds that can normally only be achieved using gallium arsenide or graphene, 30-60x faster than what silicon could do even with cryogenic cooling in ideal conditions (and over 100x faster than what commercially-available silicon can do with air-cooling).

Bricks would be shat, because finding a way to make fold carbon as functional as fold quartz would mean the eradication of fold time differentials, near-instantaneous interstellar communication, and a horde of other seriously game-changing technological advances in the Macross universe. The impact to ISC technology would barely be a footnote in a galaxy-redefining technological renaissance.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
If carbon-based ISC has a capability of VF-25 ISC, for example, the quartz-based ones may perform much better than the carbon lite version.
Inferior material can do it well, then the superior ones can do it better.
That doesn't fit the published spec, though... the VF-31A Kairos's ISC is listed with a higher buffer capacity than the VF-25's.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
Maybe Xaos uses quartz smaller than the four on YF-29.
Also possible.

Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
Though it is still not canon (Kodachi took material from Master File when he wrote The Ride), Master File VF-31 has mentioned a method to "enhance" the ability of the smaller, lower grade quartz.

By resonating some closely-placed (in certain configurations), specially-cut small quartz and manipulating the fold wave with song, Dr. Chiba could make these crystal groups give a performance suppressing that of FC.5, even reaching the level of FC.6/6+ was not impossible. All they need is a suitable singer.
That's the first attempt I've seen at an explanation for why the VF-31 Siegfried's fold wave system seems to only respond to an appropriately-powerful fold song... though considering who it needed, I'd assume that a suitably powerful singer is quite a rarity, and one able to do it on cue even rarer.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
Macross 30 novel provided a wlid if not outlandish theory about Sharon Apple's hypnotizing songs: her song contained fold wave. :roll:
Sharon's a sophisticated computer system built in emulation of a living brain, so it's not inconceivable that she could... after all, mechanical fold wave emitters and amplifiers had existed for decades when she was built, and she did have technorganic components (the bio-neural processor).


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
If this theory is considered as true, it is not impossible than machine-generated waves can also do something similar.
One has to wonder if it's the right kind of fold wave. IIRC, Macross Chronicle did identify Song Energy from Macross 7 as a type of fold wave as well, and it WAS explicitly stated there that even the recorded singing of a person with a high song energy level could produce detectable amounts of song energy (Minmay's Song Energy level was estimated at around 10,000 Chiba units using recordings).

The biological fold waves in fold songs from Macross Delta appear to be somewhat different, since it's noted in the show right before the Waccine Live on Randor that those can't be reproduced from recordings.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
Perhaps this enhancement can pushing carbon beyond their natural limits, enabling them to run carbon ISC like quartz one. I suspect that the reason of VF-31A having a specialized and visible carbon container is the size, it is too large to be fitted into the nose, where the ISC is located (if it is still installed at there like VF-25).
From what we've been told of how the ISC functions, I sincerely doubt it... and even Master File has put those containers down as part of a fold wave projector apparatus.

Unless we get some kind of explicit statement that the ISC can be manufactured with fold carbon instead of the fold quartz that every source to date has said is absolutely essential, we have to assume that when they say the VF-31A uses fold carbon only, they're referring to the fold wave projectors and other Walkure support gear.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:17 pm
The enhancement also helps 5.5-Gen flying like a 6-Gen, if sufficient supports are avaliable.
There still hasn't been an officially-defined 6th Generation... the VF-31 Siegfried is just a custom 5th Gen like the YF-29.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm
I'll have to see if I can find scans of the manual (I didn't buy the Super Pack kit in question) and check its contents against the other info we've got for the Super Pack... which is disappointingly sparse outside of Variable Fighter Master File. The information I've seen attributes all the rockets in the SPS-31 to Bharat and the pack itself to [Hiotori/Feifeng].
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10400537
This is the pack you are looking for.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm
Ah yes, I remember that theory. It was a very popular one once the Macross Zero Blu-rays came out with Sheryl Nome's fold quartz earrings edited into Sara and Mao's little memorial to their parents. In the Macross Chronicle Worldguide Sheet for the Vajra (No.08A in the 1st edition, 24A in the 2nd) it was promoted from theory to fact.

The Worldguide Sheet for the Vajra mentions the Vajra and their abilities were studied extensively by the ancient Protoculture, and were the basis for many technological advances of theirs like energy conversion armor and heavy quantum reaction beam weaponry. It also casually, and almost in passing, mentions in a caption on a picture of the Bird Man that the Bird Man incorporated fold quartz made by the Protoculture. (Which implies the Bird Man's power source is a fold dimensional energy converter, like many of the larger Vajra have, and which the fold wave system imitates to a certain degree when active.)

It's not inconceivable that humanity will rediscover the means to producing fold quartz on its own, without needing to harvest it from Vajra carcassses or cannibalize old Protoculture devices, but Macross Chronicle also indicates that manufacturing fold quartz is beyond humanity's technological abilities at present.
I begin to think that some factions may be crazy enough to hunt Vajra for quartz, or even using the implant control technique to "herd" them for harvesting?
GG and its subsidiaries are usually portrayed as technophilic and unethical (at least for the higher echelon of Galaxy Fleet and Critical Path), it doesn't strange that they would do this for manufacturing all those quartz-based new equipments and/or VF-27, if the blueprint of VF-27 is transferred back to GG HQ.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm
That doesn't fit the published spec, though... the VF-31A Kairos's ISC is listed with a higher buffer capacity than the VF-25's.
You mean the Max Load in the spec is another name for "Max G-Load for ISC"?
That spec is quite murky.

It is not the G-Limit of the VF, as even VF-22 has a G-Limit of +60/-45G, it doesn't make sense that a 5-Gen would perform worse than a 4-Gen in this field.
If max load means max G-load for ISC, that would be no problem for VF-25 & VF-31A/31S, but it raises another question: max load of YF-29.

http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig13/10136214k2.jpg
Data from 1/100 model manual shows that YF-29 has a max load of 40G (I know there are some discrepancies between the manual, magazines & Bandai DX, but I list them for comparison). Japanese Wiki mentions that the cockpit of YF-29 is treated with quartz coating, turning the canopy purple and ISC on YF-29 can perform much better than those on VF-25.

http://gbmshop.blogspot.hk/2012/01/mc-yf-29.html
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ChYO ... 00/002.jpg
The spec on a magazine (Great Mechanics? I am not sure about the source) is quite different, max load is 32.5G. Higher than VF-25, but not that high as expected. Frontier spent so much effort to get 4 philosopher's stones, and then all they can do is push the limit for 5G? Shinsei engineers may get very frustrated. :roll:
More is still a more, but it seems not live up to the name.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm
From what we've been told of how the ISC functions, I sincerely doubt it... and even Master File has put those containers down as part of a fold wave projector apparatus.

Unless we get some kind of explicit statement that the ISC can be manufactured with fold carbon instead of the fold quartz that every source to date has said is absolutely essential, we have to assume that when they say the VF-31A uses fold carbon only, they're referring to the fold wave projectors and other Walkure support gear.
If VF-31A mounts some kind of carbon-based fold wave amps, like the ones you mentioned on last page, then the special equipment section may specify its usage.
Even VF-31A in Alpha, Beta and Gamma squad really mount these amps, they may be the last live band Walkure expect. They have no drone for Walkure, amplifying the song less effective than Delta.

Hasegawa VF-31A model will be on sale at the end of the month, I hope its manual can provide more details than the TomyTEC one.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:04 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10400537
This is the pack you are looking for.
Yeah, I figured that was the one... I just don't own one.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
I begin to think that some factions may be crazy enough to hunt Vajra for quartz, or even using the implant control technique to "herd" them for harvesting?
So far, outside of the harvesting from Vajra corpses during wartime in the Macross Frontier series itself, the fold quartz that ends up in the hands of the protagonists seems to come from old Protoculture settlements where they left semi-intact ruins (e.g. Uroboros, the worlds of the Brisingr Alliance).

You'd need a lot of very high-performance 5th Generation VFs and a reliable way to jam the Vajra hive mind to hunt Vajra semi-safely, and only Macross Galaxy would really be capable of that.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
You mean the Max Load in the spec is another name for "Max G-Load for ISC"?
That spec is quite murky.
Yeah, it's not presented in an especially helpful manner... but the presentation IS consistent with the way it was listed for the VF-25 and VF-27, where the design load limit was the ISC's load limit (27.5G/120s in that case).

It would make no sense for it to be the structural design limit, since we know for an explicitly-stated fact that the 5th Generation VFs have performance that greatly exceeds the 4th Generation ones and are made of much sterner stuff, and we DO have airframe structural g-load limits for those. The VF-19F was good for up to +35.5G before it would suffer structural damage, Basara's VF-19 Custom was good for up to +39.5G, and the VF-22 had a structural load limit of +60G! The VF-25's ISC capacity is 27.5G, but we know it can achieve acceleration of up to 30.5G. I'd assume the actual structural limit is well in excess of the maximum acceleration g-force, probably effectively also summed with the ISC capacity. (So a YF-29 might have an actual structural limit of over 70G, since it can achieve 40G of acceleration and 30G of ISC buffering. The VF-25 would be over 58G, 30.5G of maximum acceleration plus 27.5G of ISC buffering.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig13/10136214k2.jpg
Data from 1/100 model manual shows that YF-29 has a max load of 40G (I know there are some discrepancies between the manual, magazines & Bandai DX, but I list them for comparison). Japanese Wiki mentions that the cockpit of YF-29 is treated with quartz coating, turning the canopy purple and ISC on YF-29 can perform much better than those on VF-25.
I'm not sure I would characterize the YF-29's ISC performance as THAT much better than the VF-25's. It's stated to have a maximum buffer capacity of 30G in Macross Chronicle (Macross F Movie Mechanic Sheet SMS 04 A), and we know the YF-29 can achieve 40G of acceleration in fighter mode. That's only a 9.091% improvement on the VF-25's ISC. (The application of fold quartz to the canopy doesn't seem to have anything to do with it though.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
The spec on a magazine (Great Mechanics? I am not sure about the source) is quite different, max load is 32.5G. Higher than VF-25, but not that high as expected. Frontier spent so much effort to get 4 philosopher's stones, and then all they can do is push the limit for 5G? Shinsei engineers may get very frustrated. :roll:
More is still a more, but it seems not live up to the name.
Great Mechanics DX 16 says 32.5G maximum acceleration load, Macross Chronicle says 40.0G while in fighter and 32.5G in battroid... an extra 9.5G over the VF-25's 30.5G limit in fighter. (That's an improvement of 31.15%.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
If VF-31A mounts some kind of carbon-based fold wave amps, like the ones you mentioned on last page, then the special equipment section may specify its usage.
Even VF-31A in Alpha, Beta and Gamma squad really mount these amps, they may be the last live band Walkure expect. They have no drone for Walkure, amplifying the song less effective than Delta.
Due to lazy animation, the VF-31A Kairos units operated by Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Flights also have the same multidrone recharger unit on the ordnance containers that Delta Flight uses, even though they aren't equipped with the Cygnus multidrone plates.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:07 am
Hasegawa VF-31A model will be on sale at the end of the month, I hope its manual can provide more details than the TomyTEC one.
We can only hope!
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am

I am new to Macross here. Have there been a reason for the different styles of wings (variable-swept, fixed, Delta, cranked-arrow, etc) between the Valkyrie models? Is the emphasize on roles, or the emphasize on stats decided this.

Secondly, how good was the Nightmare Plus to the Nightmare (have only watched Frontier and Delta)? And why did they not continue the develop more models with that stealth silhouette? Did the technology marched on like real life?

And thirdly, does any Valkyrie other than the X3 has guns replaced the normal arms?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:42 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am
I am new to Macross here.
Should I say "Welcome to the club" or just chant "ONE OF US! ONE OF US!"?


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am
Have there been a reason for the different styles of wings (variable-swept, fixed, Delta, cranked-arrow, etc) between the Valkyrie models? Is the emphasize on roles, or the emphasize on stats decided this.
There's usually some kind of explanation floating around, most of which are quite mundane and line up with their real-world reasoning. Most wings are variable sweep to at least some extent, to allow for storage and to facilitate transformation.

The "pure" variable sweep wings became the standard because they were carried over from the F-14s that were the starting point for VF development. They retained popularity because they facilitated optimizing aerodynamics at speed for VFs designed for all-regime performance like the VF-1, VF-11, and VF-25.

Forward-swept wings are pretty much for exactly the same thing as they are in the real world, sacrificing stability for agility.

Delta wings were initially included to improve low-altitude low-speed stability for VFs to operate in close support of ground troops (the first delta-wing VF was a VF-0C intended for the UN Marine Corps), but also had the benefit of allowing the fighter to carry more fuel than the variable-sweep wing models. The fuel aspect became less important with the introduction of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, but still remained an advantageous factor for VFs intended to operate mainly in space (like the VF-4 and VF-17) or those intended for attacker roles.

EDIT: The one main case of bucking the real-world explanation was the Sv-262 Draken III, which has very little onboard fuel storage despite its delta wing profile thanks to its unusual transformation.

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am
Secondly, how good was the Nightmare Plus to the Nightmare (have only watched Frontier and Delta)? And why did they not continue the develop more models with that stealth silhouette? Did the technology marched on like real life?
By Block II, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus was considered to have exceeded the performance of the old VF-17 on which it was based. Its engines weren't as powerful in terms of raw thrust, but its handling was greatly improved both in space and atmosphere and the redesigned airframe improved its overall versatility by no small amount. It was every bit as durable as the original (if not moreso), but also more reliable thanks to control system refinements and engine detuning. It was kind of the ultimate Jack of all Trades VF, it was versatile enough to fill almost any role, inexpensive to build and maintain at roughly 3 times the cost of a Ghost, and easy enough on the pilots that even average pilots could get the most out of the airframe.

The passively stealthy silhouette didn't stick around because technology marched on... but it marched in a different direction than in the real world. The VF-17 was a 3rd Generation VF, graduating to a Generation 3.5 design once it was upgraded with thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines starting on the VF-17D and VF-17S. It was developed in a period when active stealth technology had been overtaken by advances made in radar technology, so its design (and that of its nominal successor, the VF-22) favored the passive stealth approach. The VF-171 came on the tail end of that period, when 3rd Gen active stealth had come into use and VFs could once again hang monstrous amounts of bombs and missiles under their wings with little fear of compromising stealthiness. Active stealth was still pretty much the rule moving into the 5th Generation with the YF-24 Evolution and its derivatives (the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31).

(Macross's alternate history has had destructive interference-based active stealth since around the UN Wars in 2008. The first-gen systems were enough to make the Sv-51 and VF-0 all but invisible to radars on the F14A+ and MiG-29.)


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:47 am
And thirdly, does any Valkyrie other than the X3 has guns replaced the normal arms?
The VF-X3 Medusa's arms weren't really replaced by guns... there are still normal arms and hands there, it's sort of wearing the guns like a huge shield on each forearm. (The VB-6 Konig Monster is kind of similar, except the entire forearm is a missile launcher with a hand conveniently located on one end.)
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:42 am
There's usually some kind of explanation floating around, most of which are quite mundane and line up with their real-world reasoning. Most wings are variable sweep to at least some extent, to allow for storage and to facilitate transformation.
So what about the wings of the VF-4? Other than the thrusters, why did they not make it longer? Also, what is with the little fin under the cockpit?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:42 am
The passively stealthy silhouette didn't stick around because technology marched on... but it marched in a different direction than in the real world. The VF-17 was a 3rd Generation VF, graduating to a Generation 3.5 design once it was upgraded with thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines starting on the VF-17D and VF-17S. It was developed in a period when active stealth technology had been overtaken by advances made in radar technology, so its design (and that of its nominal successor, the VF-22) favored the passive stealth approach. The VF-171 came on the tail end of that period, when 3rd Gen active stealth had come into use and VFs could once again hang monstrous amounts of bombs and missiles under their wings with little fear of compromising stealthiness. Active stealth was still pretty much the rule moving into the 5th Generation with the YF-24 Evolution and its derivatives (the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31).

(Macross's alternate history has had destructive interference-based active stealth since around the UN Wars in 2008. The first-gen systems were enough to make the Sv-51 and VF-0 all but invisible to radars on the F14A+ and MiG-29.)
That is interesting to know. The reason America was done with the angular silhouette after the F-117 was simply because the computers and the machinery had gotten so good that they could handle the smooth curves of the F-22 and the F-35.

Say, how expensive is it for a non-military entity to maintain a serviceable Valkyrie? Even pirates and civilian collectors can have fully armed Valkyrie, right? Do they cannibalise other units for parts, or companies still make parts (including weapons) for their legacy models?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:25 am

False Prophet wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 am
So what about the wings of the VF-4? Other than the thrusters, why did they not make it longer? Also, what is with the little fin under the cockpit?
The VF-4's unusual trimaran-style body and cranked arrow delta wing was chosen to mainly to increase the usable internal volume of the airframe. Since it was intended to be mainly a space fighter, they needed a design with much more internal volume for fuel tanks as well as space for the supplemental engines that'd take some of the propulsion system burden off the compact thermonuclear reactor fuel supply[1]. It had the added bonus of increasing the usable space for armaments as well, allowing twelve AMM-3 medium-range missiles to be fitted in semi-recessed mounts while also leaving (depending on loadings) six or eight pylon stations free on the wing for other ordnance.

As far as not making it longer... the VF-4 design was finalized and went into production in the years which immediately followed the end of the First Space War. Earth's infrastructure was a total loss, as was nearly the entire population of the planet. As it was intended both for planetary defense and to equip the newly built emigration ships of the Megaroad-class (which weren't that big), the VF-4's size was constrained to enable it to fit more readily into existing ships in numbers and to permit it to share 25% of its parts with the VF-1 to ease the maintenance burden.

EDIT: Stonewell/Bellcom attempted to address the same issues on the VF-1 platform by scaling the design up accordingly as a late "rival" to their VF-4. The result was the VF-3000 Crusader, which suffered from a number of mechanical issues as a result of scaling the VF-1 design up like joints slipping. It never entered mass production, and only a few test units were built.

The little fin under the cockpit is a ventral canard. An unusual touch, but every little bit helps since the emphasis on space performance left the VF-4 a little lacking in maneuverability in atmosphere. Being no great shakes at dogfighting in atmosphere, the VF-4's atmospheric service was mainly as an interceptor or attacker, while the VF-1 stayed on as an atmospheric dogfighter until it was replaced by a dedicated 2nd Gen atmospheric VF: the VF-5000.


False Prophet wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 am
That is interesting to know. The reason America was done with the angular silhouette after the F-117 was simply because the computers and the machinery had gotten so good that they could handle the smooth curves of the F-22 and the F-35.
Yep. Macross's setting has mixed active and passive stealth in greater and lesser degrees, though on most any VF you'll find both radar-absorbent passive stealth coatings AND an active stealth system antenna cluster. Active stealth tends to trump passive stealth much of the time, probably because exciting designs don't always play nice with passive stealth principles.


False Prophet wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:11 am

Say, how expensive is it for a non-military entity to maintain a serviceable Valkyrie? Even pirates and civilian collectors can have fully armed Valkyrie, right? Do they cannibalise other units for parts, or companies still make parts (including weapons) for their legacy models?
To the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever put a number on it.

The old Sky Angels tech manual indicated the VF-1 Valkyrie (at Block 4) had a flyaway cost of $126 million, but that was before the war when it was new (and also written in 1986, when the average fighter jet cost around 1/5 of that). Factory satellite mass-manufacturing technology seems to have brought the cost of owning a VF way down, along with the development of detuned, simplified models intended for civilians (e.g. the VT-1C).

Ownership of a civilian-grade VF seems to be something that's within the reach of the middle class or upper middle class civilian by the late 2040's and 2050's not unlike a modern light aircraft. That said, most of the people who own them seem to have obtained them for work purposes rather than as pleasure craft, so that may carry some kind of tax incentive or something. We know they're inexpensive enough that a vocational school like Mihoshi Academy was able to afford to maintain a small fleet of VF-1s in the mid-2050s for pilot training, and successful civilian air racers have been shown to be flush enough with cash to buy the newer models from military disposal sales[2] even without significant corporate sponsorship. The manufacturers make repair parts for their supported models (e.g. Shinsei Industry is still making parts for the VT-1 series originally developed by the companies that merged to found it), and there are companies around (like the Robbins Group) that specialize in the repair and customization of civilian market VFs. Civilian-market VFs are not equipped with weapons, but it's possible for the suitably-wealthy to obtain fire control systems for their civilian VFs through legitimate means (and weapons through less-legitimate ones). The ultra-wealthy can afford to own the same VFs the military's using, like Critical Path Corp President Manfred Brando, who owned a personal VF-17S complete with live weapons in 2051.




1. The VF-4A's FF-2011 engines were almost 22% more powerful than the VF-1's FF-2001s, but their fuel efficiency wasn't any better. Fuel consumption is a big problem for VFs operating in space, since their engines rely on venting plasma from the compact thermonuclear reactor to serve as propellant when flying in space. That forces them to burn through their fuel orders of magnitude faster than in atmosphere, with the first-gen engines having an increase in consumption rate of approximately 4,200x. To frame that in a usable perspective, the VF-1's 1,410L of hydrogen slush was good for approximately 700 hours of operating time in atmosphere... and just 10 minutes at maximum thrust in space. Later generations of engine were much more efficient, but the fuel burn rate is still high enough that most VFs operating in space use large conformal fuel tanks and supplemental booster rockets to extend their operating time.

2. In 2058, Vanquish League air racer Chelsea Scarlett had enough money on hand after her debut season with the league to afford to purchase three incomplete VF-11B Thunderbolt fuselages from a disposal sale held by the Macross Frontier fleet New UN Spacy. She was able to harvest enough parts from those three fuselages for the Robbins Group to build her one working custom VF-11B. Prior to that her racer was a heavily modified VF-19 loaned to her by Strategic Military Services (SMS).
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm

http://www.1999.co.jp/image/10472150/50/1
Just in, Hasegawa 1:72 VF-31A Manual.
The background is quite different from that of TomyTEC. Is there really someone to make things consistent?

Though we said there were NUNS federal and colonial force at here, the distinctions between them in the stories were rarely specified. It is difficult to determine the exact NUNS branch mentioned in Hasegawa manual. I assume the NUNS in question as the federal one for convenience.

If the NUNS is cluster colonial force like Kaiba said, even "service-wide deployment" can be refer to colonial force, "factories on colonized planets across galaxies" (Yea, galaxies) mentioned in both manuals would be much more difficult to answer.
Also, Hasegawa Manual touches other questions, I may talk about it in later posts, since the translation is quite tricky and more time is required.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10384638/50/1
"(Surya is) establishing factories on colonized planets across galaxies" is mentioned in the second last sentence of TomyTEC Manual.
Similar contents also appear in the second paragraph of Hasegawa Manual.
"The initial model VF-31A, planned to be deployed service-wide in the beginning, can be manufactured from the dedicated factories on colonized planets across galaxies"

If VF-31A is really intended to be a 5-Gen for cluster colonial force (maybe the sole customer) and Xaos are just doing the outsourced test flight, Surya doesn't need to set up factories across galaxies. Brisingr cluster is nothing more than a backwater globular cluster (and a much oversized one by today standard), is it worth to set up a joint venture of 4 companies, building factories across galaxies and manufacturing a 5-Gen just for the cluster colonial force?
Although an oversized globular cluster with a population of 8 billion from various species need a large force and lots of equipments, the production scale of Surya is still too large.
That's why I don't think VF-31 is a low-end 5-Gen VF designed for a colonial force on the galactic rim, but a service-wide main VF for both NUNS Colonial and Federal Forces, at least intended to be.

Just pray Kawamori doesn't kill off VF-31 with strange reasons again.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
The background is quite different from that of TomyTEC. Is there really someone to make things consistent?
For merchandising? Sometimes, but not often.

Inconsistencies and inaccuracies are pretty common in model kit and toy booklets, which is one of the main reasons they're not regarded as authoritative sources.



Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
I assume the NUNS in question as the federal one for convenience.
Almost certainly a very bad idea, since the regional/local New UN Forces are the ones who've appeared in every series after the original including Macross Delta and official sources indicate the VF-31A is the next main fighter of the Brisingr Alliance NUNS, and that the Feddies have had their next main fighter for ten years by this point.



Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
If the NUNS is cluster colonial force like Kaiba said, even "service-wide deployment" can be refer to colonial force, "factories on colonized planets across galaxies" (Yea, galaxies) mentioned in both manuals would be much more difficult to answer.
"Across the galaxy", not "galaxies". There are no explicit plurals in Japanese. Unless it says a number or it indicates a group with a suffix, it's singular.

The New UN Government doesn't possess fold technology developed enough for extragalactic travel. They had to decentralize their government and military because its furthest-flung member worlds were over 10 years away from Earth by space fold. Emigrant fleets need to bank energy for months or years to save up enough to jump just ~1,000ly, and the nearest satellite galaxy orbiting ours is over 25,000ly away.

Surya Aerospace isn't a galaxy-wide organization either... it's a local partnership between Shinsei Industry's Brisingr Alliance branch offices and some other local companies (Bharat, Hiotori/FeiFeng, and L.A.I.). The idea of it being built across the galaxy doesn't fit with any previous information... especially when we have an official statement from Kawamori that it won't go into mass production for another 2-3 years.



Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
If VF-31A is really intended to be a 5-Gen for cluster colonial force (maybe the sole customer) and Xaos are just doing the outsourced test flight, Surya doesn't need to set up factories across galaxies. Brisingr cluster is nothing more than a backwater globular cluster (and a much oversized one by today standard), is it worth to set up a joint venture of 4 companies, building factories across galaxies and manufacturing a 5-Gen just for the cluster colonial force?
While I don't mean to be rude, I am beginning to suspect a fair amount of your confusion may stem from translation-related problems rather than the material itself.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
That's why I don't think VF-31 is a low-end 5-Gen VF designed for a colonial force on the galactic rim, but a service-wide main VF for both NUNS Colonial and Federal Forces, at least intended to be.
The problem with your line of reasoning is that the official sources are quite clear that it is a low-end 5th Gen VF designed for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS out on the galactic frontier... and that many of the better-developed parts of the galaxy have long since transitioned to 5th Generation VFs.

One of the key points of the 5th Generation is that there is NO SUCH THING as a service-wide main VF anymore... that died with the VF-171, but even before then there were plenty of governments that didn't honor it, like Megaroad-13/Varuata.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:09 pm
Just pray Kawamori doesn't kill off VF-31 with strange reasons again.
It's the 5th Gen VF for a small strategic alliance out in the space boonies... odds are it'll finish out its three decades or so of service life in relative peace, and be replaced by something else around 2100.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
Inconsistencies and inaccuracies are pretty common in model kit and toy booklets, which is one of the main reasons they're not regarded as authoritative sources.
However they are still the few things we got now, before Macross Chronicle is updated and reissued.
The background in the manuals usually consistent with the later source, not counting things like the weight and thrust rating in 1:100 YF-29 Manual or first flight location of VF-25.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
Almost certainly a very bad idea, since the regional/local New UN Forces are the ones who've appeared in every series after the original including Macross Delta and official sources indicate the VF-31A is the next main fighter of the Brisingr Alliance NUNS, and that the Feddies have had their next main fighter for ten years by this point.
If VF-31A is simply a main VF for a backwater cluster, those who wrote the manuals and Master File should be horsewhipped. Even Kawamori should take much responsibility for this, he is the supervisor of semi-canon (since the series is produced under the supervision of Kawamori and Chiba has wrote parts of the Files) to non-canon Master File Series. As the mechanical designer and chief director of Delta, I think that Kawamori knows what the staffs and the Sarge guy wrote in the VF-31 manual or other things, if he is not the one who wrote it.
Or does he like some of my friends said: Kawamori is good at design the machines only and doesn't give a damn about consistency at all? Most, if not all of sources available now are contradicting each others.

Kawamori(?) said VF-31 is designed for Cluster Colonial Forces
TomyTEC said it is planned to be NUNS service-wide main VF, adding a fear factor.
Hasegawa mentioned a background similar to TomyTEC without the fear factor and counting VF-25 as a main VF, maybe in a sense like MBT, but not the deployment scale.
Master File VF-31? It seems that the writers tried to clean up the mess Sarge made in TomyTEC, but they forgot the Master File VF-25 written by themselves in 6 years ago...

BTW, I am curious about the official source providing the status of VF-31A. Great Mechanics? Delta Pamphlet?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
"Across the galaxy", not "galaxies". There are no explicit plurals in Japanese. Unless it says a number or it indicates a group with a suffix, it's singular.
The main point is "各銀河", 各 is the word of every or each in Japanese.
The literal translation for that is every/each galaxy. If there is just one galaxy colonized by human, why does the writer use each in the manual?
If Surya simply set up factory across the galaxy, it should be written as something like 銀河の各移民惑星基地 (Hasegawa version) or 銀河に專用の工場 (TomyTEC version).
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
The New UN Government doesn't possess fold technology developed enough for extragalactic travel. They had to decentralize their government and military because its furthest-flung member worlds were over 10 years away from Earth by space fold. Emigrant fleets need to bank energy for months or years to save up enough to jump just ~1,000ly, and the nearest satellite galaxy orbiting ours is over 25,000ly away.
Brisingr Cluster, located at the tip of Sagittarius Arm, is much further than Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy and Sagittarius Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy.
The tip of Sagittarius Arm is more than 70,000 light years away from the Earth.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
Surya Aerospace isn't a galaxy-wide organization either... it's a local partnership between Shinsei Industry's Brisingr Alliance branch offices and some other local companies (Bharat, Hiotori/FeiFeng, and L.A.I.). The idea of it being built across the galaxy doesn't fit with any previous information... especially when we have an official statement from Kawamori that it won't go into mass production for another 2-3 years.
Do you mean the VF-31A piloted by Arad in 2065 probably comes from one of the LRIP lots, and these lots are not counted as mass production lots?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
While I don't mean to be rude, I am beginning to suspect a fair amount of your confusion may stem from translation-related problems rather than the material itself.
If you really think what I am saying is unreliable, you can send all the materials I quoted in this thread to others for translation.
When I saw "各銀河" in both manuals, I simply couldn't believe it. So I sent the photos to three of my friends, one watched Delta, while at least one is not a fan of Macross.
All of them gave me back the similar answer: it is either each/every galaxy or galaxies, not one galaxy.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
The problem with your line of reasoning is that the official sources are quite clear that it is a low-end 5th Gen VF designed for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS out on the galactic frontier... and that many of the better-developed parts of the galaxy have long since transitioned to 5th Generation VFs.
Surya should not choose Feifeng engines as boosters on VF-31 FAST Pack, they are the culprit of having a lower acceleration. :roll:
Even VF-31 is a VF-25 Lite or low-end 5-Gen, it still has a beam gunpod (maybe VF-25 from later Blocks can equip one), better armament placement (IMO, the swivel railguns can perform much better than the beam guns near the legs of VF-25, especially in battroid mode) and MPC that can store equipment or armament better.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:37 pm
One of the key points of the 5th Generation is that there is NO SUCH THING as a service-wide main VF anymore... that died with the VF-171, but even before then there were plenty of governments that didn't honor it, like Megaroad-13/Varuata.
Storywise, it gives Varauta an advantage to massacre VF-11, since VF-14/VA-14, which the Elgerzorn and Panzerzorn based on, carries much more armament and has a much greater thrust.
From the viewpoint in Macross world, planet-based forces are less restrained by size issue. Investigation fleets need a durable VF and Zentradi prefer its ability.

If the service-wide concept was really died with jack-of-all-trade VF-171, the multi-role ability and modifiability of VF-31 would be redundant.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am

More questions for you guys:

1. Which books should I read if I want to knows how the world of Macross works (politic, economy, etc)?

2. Is there an explaination for the Draken III's thruster? The Single Engine struck me as abnormal (Did it have Thrust Vectoring capacity or not? It did look like so to me when the noozles opened up.)

3. Is there a naming convention regarding Valkyrie designation? Such as A for mass-production and such?

I noticed some strange things, such as the VF-17 used the T instead of the D for the trained variant, or the Star Mirage did not have an A variant but there was the B.

4. As till Delta it has yet passed a century since humanity started extraterrestrial colonization, do you think that with times the human race would be even more divergent? Different genetic makeups (due to breeding with aliens), different customs, different languages, etc.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:44 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
1. Which books should I read if I want to knows how the world of Macross works (politic, economy, etc)?
Macross Chronicle.
The novels can provide a glimpse of world that may not be mentioned in chronicle.
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
2. Is there an explaination for the Draken III's thruster? The Single Engine struck me as abnormal (Did it have Thrust Vectoring capacity or not? It did look like so to me when the nozzles opened up.)
It is a twin-engine VF and the engines are capable of 3D thrust vectoring.
When the first pic of Draken III was released, I expected it would be the first official single-engine VF. Yet, the reality was so cruel...
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
4. As till Delta it has yet passed a century since humanity started extraterrestrial colonization, do you think that with times the human race would be even more divergent? Different genetic makeups (due to breeding with aliens), different customs, different languages, etc.
It may take longer time to see some real differences, few decades are too short for large scale changes.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
However they are still the few things we got now, before Macross Chronicle is updated and reissued.
The background in the manuals usually consistent with the later source, not counting things like the weight and thrust rating in 1:100 YF-29 Manual or first flight location of VF-25.
We've got more than those... there's a number of official publications and the Blu-ray liner notes, both of which are much more reliable.

(Not that they're infallible... someone got a little copy-paste happy when the time came to do the VF-1EX writeup in the liner notes, so the engine model number was right but they mistakenly listed it as a Stage II engine and put an extra 0 in the thrust output.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
If VF-31A is simply a main VF for a backwater cluster, those who wrote the manuals and Master File should be horsewhipped.
I've been saying that about the Master File staff since the VF-22 book came out... they've gone completely 'round the twist. The VF-4 book outright ignored the official variants and development history in favor of some oddball gobbledegook intended to tie into the ZOINKS VF-31 book and throw a half-dozen nods to Macross II's two prequel video games.

(Not that we Macross II fans don't appreciate the effort, but the VF-4 is important enough to us that we'd like it done right.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Even Kawamori should take much responsibility for this, he is the supervisor of semi-canon (since the series is produced under the supervision of Kawamori and Chiba has wrote parts of the Files) to non-canon Master File Series. As the mechanical designer and chief director of Delta, I think that Kawamori knows what the staffs and the Sarge guy wrote in the VF-31 manual or other things, if he is not the one who wrote it.
Kawamori's more an idea and design man... most of the tech specs and so on are the domain of Masahiro Chiba, who is the Macross mechanical setting coordinator and has been responsible for the official specs of ships, mecha, and what have you since the eighties.

The Variable Fighter Master File books are explicitly non-canon though, so there's not really much pressure on the writers to make sure it lines up neatly with everything else. They've got that lovely disclaimer about how they're not Official Setting material to hide behind. I just wish they'd put the kind of effort into it that they did for the VF-1, VF-0, and VF-25 books. This kind of weirdness is not new, and not really confined to Macross's tech manuals either. Rare is the metaseries that considers its tech manuals canon. Star Trek, I know, does not consider theirs canon.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Or does he like some of my friends said: Kawamori is good at design the machines only and doesn't give a damn about consistency at all? Most, if not all of sources available now are contradicting each others.
Based on what's been said by the man himself about Macross Delta, I suspect the difference between their work on Frontier and the new series is that Kawamori's heart really wasn't in this one. Delta was not the show he wanted to make. He wanted something that was more mecha-intensive, about competing VF flight demonstration teams with less emphasis on music this time around (that's where the Aerial Knights came from). Instead, he was forced to make the VFs the background designs in order to focus on the idol singers.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Kawamori(?) said VF-31 is designed for Cluster Colonial Forces
TomyTEC said it is planned to be NUNS service-wide main VF, adding a fear factor.
Hasegawa mentioned a background similar to TomyTEC without the fear factor and counting VF-25 as a main VF, maybe in a sense like MBT, but not the deployment scale.
Master File VF-31? It seems that the writers tried to clean up the mess Sarge made in TomyTEC, but they forgot the Master File VF-25 written by themselves in 6 years ago...
The BD liner notes and official publications line up with Kawamori's statements.

TOMYTEC and Hasegawa seem to be off in left field, having apparently forgotten that official canon established back in Macross Frontier established the federal New UN Forces had selected the VF-24 as their main VF in 2057 and that the other 5th Gen designs were regional alternatives to building a monkey model VF-24 like they'd had to do with the VF-19Es in Macross the Ride.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
BTW, I am curious about the official source providing the status of VF-31A. Great Mechanics? Delta Pamphlet?
Great Mechanics G Spring/Summer 2016 and the Macross Delta limited edition Blu-ray liner notes booklets.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
The main point is "各銀河", 各 is the word of every or each in Japanese.
The literal translation for that is every/each galaxy. If there is just one galaxy colonized by human, why does the writer use each in the manual?
Maybe they made the same mistake some fans did when the Mission 0.89 version came out with that incomplete render of the galaxy that made it look like the Brisingr cluster was in one of the Milky Way's satellite galaxies?


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Brisingr Cluster, located at the tip of Sagittarius Arm, is much further than Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy and Sagittarius Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy.
The tip of Sagittarius Arm is more than 70,000 light years away from the Earth.
So? It doesn't contradict my point about the time required. It took the 4th Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigration Fleet led by Megaroad-04 over 10 years to reach the Brisingr cluster... and they were able to resupply their ships many times while en route using locally-available resources between fold jumps. A fleet traveling to another galaxy wouldn't be able to resupply their fuel and obtain raw material for repairs nearly as easily in the intergalactic medium, since there isn't much asteroidal debris and no convenient gas giants to obtain hydrogen from.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Do you mean the VF-31A piloted by Arad in 2065 probably comes from one of the LRIP lots, and these lots are not counted as mass production lots?
Based on Kawamori's remarks in Great Mechanics G, the VF-31A would not be ready to be adopted by the Brisingr Alliance NUNS for another 2-3 years after the events of Macross Delta. On that basis, I'd say that it would be safe to assume the VF-31A that Arad flew in the flashback episode was either a prototype (YF-31?) or a very early trial production model from Block 0. As he indicated, Xaos was testing the VF-31 in the field before it was adopted by the military, which suggests that they're in the same kind of contract relationship as the Macross Frontier branch of SMS was, carrying out OPEVAL testing on the LRIP batch in 2067.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
If you really think what I am saying is unreliable, you can send all the materials I quoted in this thread to others for translation.
Based on what you've said here, I humbly withdraw the remark and offer my sincere apologies.

The problem is evidently with the writers of the material at TOMYTEC and Hasegawa, who seem to be off in left field.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Surya should not choose Feifeng engines as boosters on VF-31 FAST Pack, they are the culprit of having a lower acceleration. :roll:
Even VF-31 is a VF-25 Lite or low-end 5-Gen, it still has a beam gunpod (maybe VF-25 from later Blocks can equip one), better armament placement (IMO, the swivel railguns can perform much better than the beam guns near the legs of VF-25, especially in battroid mode) and MPC that can store equipment or armament better.
One thing I want to know, as a result of discovering the VF-31A can run a heavy quantum beam gunpod even on a engine virtually identical to the VF-25's is whether the VF-25 itself was later upgraded to the LU-18 or something similar. Since beam gunpods had previously only been available on 4-engine VFs or VFs using /FC1 and /FC2 engines with ultra-high output, I had initially discounted the possibility... but it seems it's back on the table.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
Storywise, it gives Varauta an advantage to massacre VF-11, since VF-14/VA-14, which the Elgerzorn and Panzerzorn based on, carries much more armament and has a much greater thrust.
The VF-14/VA-14 was definitely a better space fighter, but in that period the (New) UN Spacy had gone in for an all-regime fighter. Kind of sucks that they were forced to fight the upgraded version that ended up technically a Generation 3.5 fighter like the VF-17D/S type.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
From the viewpoint in Macross world, planet-based forces are less restrained by size issue. Investigation fleets need a durable VF and Zentradi prefer its ability.
At least in the 1st Generation emigration fleets, yeah... those Megaroad-class ships weren't exactly roomy, though later generations of emigrant ship were much larger. Oddly impressive that the Northampton-class can take three VF-14s in its rather spartan hangar bay though.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm
If the service-wide concept was really died with jack-of-all-trade VF-171, the multi-role ability and modifiability of VF-31 would be redundant.
Not at all! The VF-31's modular ordnance container system simplifies military acquisitions even for a force that's only operating in one region of the galaxy. A wealthier region, planet, or fleet can easily afford to buy different variants dedicated to different roles. For an economically underdeveloped region like the Brisingr Alliance, that they'd try to follow on the spirit of the highly-adaptable VF-171 design with a single VF that could fill all roles by swapping modular equipment makes a lot of sense. It might not do some jobs as well, since there's a limit to the amount of gear you can fit into the ordnance container, but it'll do them well enough for most purposes.

The VF-31's kind of brilliant in hindsight as an economized design. Most of its hardware is off-the-shelf hardware that's already been extensively tested in the field by other models of fighter that preceded it (e.g. the VF-25), and its use of a modular ordnance container system sacrifices some of the specialist performance of a purpose-built variant in exchange for a lower build and maintenance cost of having to obtain multiple variants in favor of using one model with common parts and then hot-swapping mission packages. I can maybe see it being a popular new design for the less wealthy parts of the galaxy.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:08 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
1. Which books should I read if I want to knows how the world of Macross works (politic, economy, etc)?
Macross Chronicle would be the big one, particularly the Worldguide and History sheets. There are some of the interviews, like Otona Anime #9 that might be of interest too. (That one talks about the decentralized government and economic implications of same circa 2059.)

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
2. Is there an explaination for the Draken III's thruster? The Single Engine struck me as abnormal (Did it have Thrust Vectoring capacity or not? It did look like so to me when the noozles opened up.)
It's a pair of engines side-by-side inside a single thrust-vectoring cowling. The wingtip "Lilldraken" drones help with thrust vectoring as well, since they can spin 360 degrees like the wingtip engines of the YF-29.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
3. Is there a naming convention regarding Valkyrie designation? Such as A for mass-production and such?
They loosely follow the same conventions as the United States 1962 tri-service aircraft designation system, with a couple modifications/deviations.

For instance, "VF" is considered to be a single Basic Mission letter as Fighter (Variable), but otherwise follows the conventions... so "VA" is a Variable Attacker, "VB" a Variable Bomber, "VR" a Variable Reconnaissance unit, "VT" a Variable Trainer, and so on. Early prototypes are designated VF-X-# (Variable Fighter, Experimental). Prototypes get a straight YF.

There's no hard and fast universal rule for variant designations beyond that A usually indicates the design's initial mass production variant. Some models march sequentially through the alphabet like the VF-4 and VF-11 did, but others skip around a little. Letter N+1 seems to often end up as a tandem cockpit version of a mass production unit, with B and D being the most common ones. In a few series, S is reserved for squadron leaders or CAGs, like the VF-1S, VF-17S, VF-19S, VF-25S, and VF-31S.

They do go in for production block numbers too, with similar conventions to the US system, though outside of the technical publications the block numbers tend to get omitted (realistically so).

There is one unique twist that's been added in Macross Frontier, where local variations of an existing design spec have an additional notation of "fleet/world of origin" at the end of their designation, starting with a / and a code indicating where the unit was built. One of the exemplar units was the VF-19C/MG21, a VF-19C Excalibur built to a fleet-specific spec in the 21st Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigration Fleet "Macross Galaxy" (MG21). So, say, a VF-25F from Block 1 built in the Macross Frontier fleet would be, fully, VF-25F-1/MF25.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
I noticed some strange things, such as the VF-17 used the T instead of the D for the trained variant, or the Star Mirage did not have an A variant but there was the B.
The VF-17 is a bit of an odd bird in that respect. It fits the N+1 pattern for tandem cockpits, and from the spec it does appear to simply be a tandem cockpit VF-17S. The VF-5000 had a T variant as well, though with a nonstandard designation of VF-5000T-G, indicating it was a VF-5000G modified for tandem seating.

The VF-5000's A variant succumbed to the same situation the VF-11's did... very few A variant models were built, and most (if not all) were converted into the slightly tweaked B variant once the military started buying them in significant numbers. (Macross Chronicle suggested that some of the VF-11As that weren't upgraded ended their service as unmanned target drones like the ones seen in Macross Plus.)


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
4. As till Delta it has yet passed a century since humanity started extraterrestrial colonization, do you think that with times the human race would be even more divergent? Different genetic makeups (due to breeding with aliens), different customs, different languages, etc.
'bout 66 years, if you want to count from the start of construction on Mars Base Salla.

The human gene pool took a real hit in the First Space War, and many of the first generation colonists and crews for the emigrant ships were clones made using Zentradi overtechnology... so the human gene pool is a good deal less diverse than it is today. The total surviving human population after the First Space War was ~1 million souls who survived the war by either being 6km underground in the incomplete Grand Cannons or living in space as the first colonists on the moon, the orbital space colonies, and the SDF-1 Macross. There were around 8 million Zentradi living on Earth after the war. They worked with cloning for a couple decades after the war, until various recessive genetic disorders started to become a problem.

Interbreeding with aliens isn't unheard-of but it doesn't seem to be particularly common either. The Zentradi are the ones humanity's doing it the most with, and they're almost identical to humans genetically so that's not likely to have a huge influence. It remains to be seen if all sub-Protoculture species can interbreed successfully, given that we're told three-species hybrid Michael Blanc's genes are screwed up enough that he can't safely use miclone systems to become Zentradi sized. (He's a Human-Zentradi-Zolan hybrid.) Chuck Mustang and his sister both are apparently quite ready to try to get a leg over an alien... though tragically Chuck's not popular with the ladies in Xaos and his sister's crush gets turned into a ketchup stain.

I think eventually humanity will become comfortable enough in its new homeworlds, but for now they seem to be mostly recreating nostalgic parts of Earth on various planets. Alien cultures seem to be suffering a lot of cultural pollution from interacting with humanity though. The Zolans were a big market for cultural imports, even though human colonists couldn't safely live on their planet due to the local microorganisms being fairly hostile to humans.

It'll probably take a long time for them to start developing new languages though, since English is the lingua franca for the New UN Government and a few other old Earth languages like Japanese, Chinese, and French are still spoken.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:08 pm
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
1. Which books should I read if I want to knows how the world of Macross works (politic, economy, etc)?
Macross Chronicle would be the big one, particularly the Worldguide and History sheets. There are some of the interviews, like Otona Anime #9 that might be of interest too. (That one talks about the decentralized government and economic implications of same circa 2059.)
Is there anyway to read Macross Chronicle in English? I know nothing about Japanese.

Also, how many Macross fleet are there? As many as the number of Macross carrier they could build? And is there a central organization to oversee the Macross fleets, or are they all given carte blanche?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:08 pm
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:33 am
3. Is there a naming convention regarding Valkyrie designation? Such as A for mass-production and such?
They loosely follow the same conventions as the United States 1962 tri-service aircraft designation system, with a couple modifications/deviations.

For instance, "VF" is considered to be a single Basic Mission letter as Fighter (Variable), but otherwise follows the conventions... so "VA" is a Variable Attacker, "VB" a Variable Bomber, "VR" a Variable Reconnaissance unit, "VT" a Variable Trainer, and so on. Early prototypes are designated VF-X-# (Variable Fighter, Experimental). Prototypes get a straight YF.

There's no hard and fast universal rule for variant designations beyond that A usually indicates the design's initial mass production variant. Some models march sequentially through the alphabet like the VF-4 and VF-11 did, but others skip around a little. Letter N+1 seems to often end up as a tandem cockpit version of a mass production unit, with B and D being the most common ones. In a few series, S is reserved for squadron leaders or CAGs, like the VF-1S, VF-17S, VF-19S, VF-25S, and VF-31S.

They do go in for production block numbers too, with similar conventions to the US system, though outside of the technical publications the block numbers tend to get omitted (realistically so).

There is one unique twist that's been added in Macross Frontier, where local variations of an existing design spec have an additional notation of "fleet/world of origin" at the end of their designation, starting with a / and a code indicating where the unit was built. One of the exemplar units was the VF-19C/MG21, a VF-19C Excalibur built to a fleet-specific spec in the 21st Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigration Fleet "Macross Galaxy" (MG21). So, say, a VF-25F from Block 1 built in the Macross Frontier fleet would be, fully, VF-25F-1/MF25.
What about the J variants? Why did it take so long after the VF-1 for another VF to carry the J designation?

Say, by the level of mind-magic and technology of Delta, could a BDI system finally restored into its specification in YF-21 without damaging its pilot?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
I've been saying that about the Master File staff since the VF-22 book came out... they've gone completely 'round the twist. The VF-4 book outright ignored the official variants and development history in favor of some oddball gobbledegook intended to tie into the ZOINKS VF-31 book and throw a half-dozen nods to Macross II's two prequel video games.

(Not that we Macross II fans don't appreciate the effort, but the VF-4 is important enough to us that we'd like it done right.)
For me, Master File VF-22 is still acceptable, though I am not a fan of the VF-22 variants in the file.

I checked the credits and contents of Master Files.
Shigeyuki Ninomiya, Kuu Hashimura and Masahiro Chiba are the writer of both Master File VF-25 & VF-31.
Ninomiya & Hashimura also wrote Master File VF-4 & Master File VF-22 (with Hajime Osato, who also wrote parts of Master File VF-25).

Hashimura is responsible for the Node & Hypernova Project in VF-31 (forgetting the fact that VF-25 is already chosen as main VF by many fleets, garrisons and planets in Master File World at least). He also wrote that Alexei Kurakin, who founded GG and leaded SV Works, died in 2026 while testing YF-14 by himself. (Master File VF-22)
Yet, Hashimura wrote Kurakin died in 2036, no cause was provided. (Master File VF-4) :?
Living twice, throwing away the consistency or simple typing mistakes?

He also messed up the development of a new VF, the later VF-9, since Kurakin was in charge of VF-9 project before his death, though this could be retcon as "Kurakin was developing later variant of VF-9 (Types between the first mass production model and VF-9E, if they ever existed) at that time"(Master File VF-4)

Even Master Files are non-canon, can the guys in SBCreative be consist and do more checking?
I appreciate their efforts trying to explain the whereabouts of Megaroad-1in Master File VF-4, even it is not considered as canon and that "explanation" brings new questions, but the inconsistency is just horrible.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
Kawamori's more an idea and design man... most of the tech specs and so on are the domain of Masahiro Chiba, who is the Macross mechanical setting coordinator and has been responsible for the official specs of ships, mecha, and what have you since the eighties.

The Variable Fighter Master File books are explicitly non-canon though, so there's not really much pressure on the writers to make sure it lines up neatly with everything else. They've got that lovely disclaimer about how they're not Official Setting material to hide behind. I just wish they'd put the kind of effort into it that they did for the VF-1, VF-0, and VF-25 books. This kind of weirdness is not new, and not really confined to Macross's tech manuals either. Rare is the metaseries that considers its tech manuals canon. Star Trek, I know, does not consider theirs canon.
At very least, be consist with the Master Files.
I have to admit that I am sensitive about these things, maybe that's the result of writing fan-fics and originals stories for more than a decade.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
The BD liner notes and official publications line up with Kawamori's statements.

TOMYTEC and Hasegawa seem to be off in left field, having apparently forgotten that official canon established back in Macross Frontier established the federal New UN Forces had selected the VF-24 as their main VF in 2057 and that the other 5th Gen designs were regional alternatives to building a monkey model VF-24 like they'd had to do with the VF-19Es in Macross the Ride.
The last time I saw this kind of discrepancy in mechanic things is the history of Dagger L.
When Destiny was on-air at early stage, Dagger L was described as a MS developed and produced in post-war period (This version is still exist on some websites). Then it was totally changed in Feb 2005 issue of Dengeki Hobby.
Dagger L were produced in large numbers by the time of Second Battle of Jachin Due, they were stationed on the Moon and ready for upcoming operation in PLANT Colony. Only the firing of GENESIS and fearing the possible ZAFT counterstrike prevented the deployment.

Few discrepancies appeared in the manual of Dark Dagger L MIA, but the majority of materials are not contradicting each other in a way like VF-31 now.

No offense, can I say the "Monkey Model VF-25 Theory" is an assumption based on the (N)UN stance on VF-19E few years before The Ride?
Frontier needs several years of time, if counting the time for negotiating with Earth and getting the procurement passed on Frontier Congress behind the scenes. When Frontier was requesting for permission to manufacture VF-19E, it might be at the time that Ractence still had much influence or Vidirance somehow continued the older term even they were in power, VF-19EF was all Frontier could got.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
Maybe they made the same mistake some fans did when the Mission 0.89 version came out with that incomplete render of the galaxy that made it look like the Brisingr cluster was in one of the Milky Way's satellite galaxies?
Maybe.
The render for the cluster looks like a small spiral galaxy. Besides, a 1000 light year-diameter Brisingr Globular Cluster is larger than some of the smallest known galaxies.
First time I heard Windermere was 800 light years away from Ragna, and they were in the SAME cluster. I thought that did Kawamori or somebody forget to do some researches, known globular clusters couldn't be that large.

Yet, after a few minutes, I remember that Andromeda Galaxy is called as Andromeda Nebula, Magellan Clouds are not clouds at all. Also, the classification we are using now can be changed by future generations, or there are probably some unmentioned in-universe reasons to classify it as a globular cluster.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
So? It doesn't contradict my point about the time required. It took the 4th Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigration Fleet led by Megaroad-04 over 10 years to reach the Brisingr cluster... and they were able to resupply their ships many times while en route using locally-available resources between fold jumps. A fleet traveling to another galaxy wouldn't be able to resupply their fuel and obtain raw material for repairs nearly as easily in the intergalactic medium, since there isn't much asteroid debris and no convenient gas giants to obtain hydrogen from.
The timeline from Newtype stated that Megaroad-04 reached Windermere IV in Brisingr Cluster at the tip of Sagittarius Arm, after "drifted" in fold fault.
I don't know what did the Megaroad-04 fleet experienced after colonizing Eden, but that's not their proposed destination.

Usually, when a ship caught up in fold fault, it was game over. But Megaroad-04 somehow made it through and found the planet of snow, saurobird and apple.
I know the Master File VF-31 is a mess and try to avoid quoting material from it, but I have a theory that probably explain why they can made it.

In Macross F TV Version Novel Vol.4, when Quarter arrived at Gallia System, the crew doubt the report that a sudden fold fault incident destroyed Gallia 4. Bobby assumed that the fault was man-made while Cathy wondered whether it was possible or not.
Then Mina talked about the Great Wall Hypothesis: Some parts of fold fault was the creation of Protoculture. By using some insanely powerful fold jammer or weapon, they could create barriers to halt the advance of Zentradi fleets and protect important systems. The hypothesis tried to explain why human discovered fold fault so lately, because Earth might be just another outback planet, Stellar Empire/Republic never gave a damn about it, there was no need to cover Earth with Great Wall. And the fold fault barrier concept was proved possible in lab conditions.

Later Master Files like VF-25 and VF-31 seemed elaborate this idea.
The existance of fold fault limited FTL travel into certain routes, some of these were seen as routes or rendezvous points used by Zentradi. Many squadrons or air groups stationed in systems near or at these locations received VF-25 earlier than other units, these units were commonly known as Gatekeepers. (Master File VF-25)

Master File VF-31 introduced a new fold feature, Nodes. They were described as Protoculture galactic highways discovered in 2050s, they shorten the trip across the stars.

Maybe Megaroad-04 didn't really bump into a fold fault, it reached a Node connected to Brisingr Cluster. Yet this kind of feature was not recognized as something new until 2050s.

For traveling outside galaxy, though intergalactic stars are rare, with the astronomic data from Zentradi fleets operating for thousands of centuries, it is not impossible for (N)UN Exploration fleets plotting a route to the dwarf galaxies nearby, with star systems that can be used for resupply on route.

Even without the intergalactic stars, there are star streams, formed by the twisted parts of Canis Major Overdensity (Monoceros Ring) and Sagittarius DEG (Sagittarius Stream), connecting Milky Way and both dwarf galaxies.

The only question is does it worth it.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
Based on what you've said here, I humbly withdraw the remark and offer my sincere apologies.

The problem is evidently with the writers of the material at TOMYTEC and Hasegawa, who seem to be off in left field.
A healthy amount of skepticism is good. 8)

TOMYTEC version treat NUNS as idlots.
Hasegawa is better, but the galaxies thing is confusing.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
One thing I want to know, as a result of discovering the VF-31A can run a heavy quantum beam gunpod even on a engine virtually identical to the VF-25's is whether the VF-25 itself was later upgraded to the LU-18 or something similar. Since beam gunpods had previously only been available on 4-engine VFs or VFs using /FC1 and /FC2 engines with ultra-high output, I had initially discounted the possibility... but it seems it's back on the table.
Don't forget the MDE Gun Matrix on VF-171EX, it shoots heavy quantum beams.
I assume that beam grenade mode requires quad-engine VF or twin-engine VF with special capacitor like YF-27-5. Twin-engine VF can use rapid-fire mode or high output beam (like VF-171EX ones, "larger" than rapid-firing bolts, "smaller" and weaker than grenade shots) with no problem.
It is possible (although less likely) that VF-31 are using later FF-3001A models that generates more electricity than those on VF-25, but they keep the old model number for unknown reasons. Description from Bandai 1:72 VF-31J Manual support this loosely, as LU-18A is powered by the excess energy from the engines.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:34 pm
The VF-14/VA-14 was definitely a better space fighter, but in that period the (New) UN Spacy had gone in for an all-regime fighter. Kind of sucks that they were forced to fight the upgraded version that ended up technically a Generation 3.5 fighter like the VF-17D/S type.
Comparing to the heavy (in terms of armament and weight) VF-14, VF-11 was a multi-role light or medium fighter.
Their roles were so different. VF-11 can handle regular battle pods/suit well, VF-14 has the capacity, firepower and thrust to conduct heavy assaults or long-range mission.
Yet UNS could pit them against each other in Nova Project...were the requirements of the project so few or so low that both of them can fulfill them all with no problem?
Last edited by Phonix_1 on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:32 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
Is there anyway to read Macross Chronicle in English? I know nothing about Japanese.

Also, how many Macross fleet are there? As many as the number of Macross carrier they could build? And is there a central organization to oversee the Macross fleets, or are they all given carte blanche?
At least 29 if only counting New Macross class colony ships.
(N)UN Government oversees the operation of colonization fleets. In F TV Version novel, Mishima, who is sent to Frontier as observer by central government, works as President's aide and chief of staff.
Though the fleets have much automony, especially after the reform in early 2050s.

However the status of autonomy is murky, because Kawamori said the fleets and planets are de facto independent states in 2008 (I can't find the original Otona Anime version, the only version I have is a summary translated in Chinese), while the portrayal in novels and background information from model manuals are closer to a federal state.
False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
What about the J variants? Why did it take so long after the VF-1 for another VF to carry the J designation?
The J in VF-1J stands for Japan, a variant with higher firepower than A-Type
VF-31J is classified as space superiority support VF, I guess this J denotes better dogfighting ability.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:31 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
Is there anyway to read Macross Chronicle in English? I know nothing about Japanese.
MacrossWorld user sketchley has a website where he's posted a number of translations from the Macross Chronicle 1st and 2nd edition releases.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/

The only problem is he uses free hosting, so the site goes down and changes location at least once a year. (I've offered him the use of one of the Macross Mecha Manual's backup servers, but thus far he's declined as he feels that it's unwise to put most of the fandom's English-language resources in one proverbial basket.)


False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
Also, how many Macross fleet are there? As many as the number of Macross carrier they could build? And is there a central organization to oversee the Macross fleets, or are they all given carte blanche?
To date, the highest-numbered New Macross-type emigrant ship to appear was Macross-29... which was the setting for a stage musical set in 2062, entitled Macross: the Musiculture.

The New UN Government constructed and launched 30 large-scale long-distance emigration fleets around the old Megaroad-class emigrant ships and 100 short-distance emigration fleets that searched for habitable planets within 100ly of Earth between 2012 and 2030. Starting in 2030, they were launching the New Macross-class ships as the core of the next waves of large-scale long-distance emigration fleets at a rate of 1-2 every year, and with no sign of stopping at present. There are, if they've kept up the pace, somewhere just shy of 70 fleets with New Macross-class emigration ships at their core in 2067.

That said, there's not a hard limit of one Battle-class carrier per fleet either. Macross-5 had four separate habitat ships each with its own Battle-class. (Gotta hand it to the Zentradi, as a species they fundamentally appreciate the principle of "NEVER ENUFF DAKKA".)

Emigration fleets are, for all practical intents and purposes, nominally independent governments operating out in space. They still answer to the supranational New UN Government and are represented in its parliament, but the fleets have a pretty open hand to govern themselves as spacegoing municipalities. There are various treaties and interstellar laws limiting their freedom of action, much like the nations of modern Earth. The military forces that each fleet maintains operate under the authority of their local government (kind of like a state militia or national guard reserve) but are answerable to the federal New UN Forces maintained by the central government.


False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
What about the J variants? Why did it take so long after the VF-1 for another VF to carry the J designation?
The J in "VF-1J" was an out-of-sequence designation assigned to denote the VF-1J was a build-under-license variant built by Japan's Shinnakasu Heavy Industries. It was originally intended to be an alternate mass production variant aimed at addressing some of the shortcomings of the VF-1A, but due to Shinnakasu's limited production capacity it would ultimately end up getting only limited deployment as an enhanced armament type for platoon leaders prior to Block 6, when it was largely sidelined to specialist units.

(It would be mainly used to deploy the GBP-1S Armored Pack, since its Shinnakasu-supplied FCS had native support for the Shinnakasu-developed pack.)

Exactly why Hayate's VF-31 got a -J variant letter is unclear, most likely it was intended to be a OOC nod to Hikaru Ichijyo's VF-1J from the original series.


False Prophet wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:29 am
Say, by the level of mind-magic and technology of Delta, could a BDI system finally restored into its specification in YF-21 without damaging its pilot?
Well... the YF-21's problem with damaging its pilot wasn't really the BDI system's fault. That was Guld Bowman's disabling of the limiters preventing the fighter from exceeding the g-force tolerances of its flesh-and-blood pilot, since the 4th Generation VFs had achieved thrust-to-weight ratios over 10:1 without any effective protection for the pilot against excessively high g-forces. (Attempts to address this problem by various means ultimately led to the VF-171 Nightmare Plus becoming the 4th Gen main fighter and the development of the inertia store converter for the 5th Generation.)

The production model VF-22 had a scaled-back version of the BDI that used a non-contact connection to prevent loss of control at high-g, improve the responsiveness of the physical controls, and assist in fire control. It wasn't the main control system, though.

General Galaxy corporation's efforts to address the faults in the YF-21's BDI system after the loss of the prototype over Earth were focused mainly on addressing the loss-of-control problems caused by the original EEG-based unit's problems distinguishing between imagined and intended courses of action. They went to a cybernetic-based BDI system that they trialed on a limited-production variant (the VF-22HG) and later incorporated the perfected BDI based on implant technology in the YF-27 and production VF-27.

It's possible they could improve on the reliability of the YF-21's BDI system, but I doubt they could iron out all the problems with distinguishing commands from imaginings the way the implant-based system does.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
For me, Master File VF-22 is still acceptable, though I am not a fan of the VF-22 variants in the file.
I don't have a hell of a lot of use for it... it's got a few good tidbits, and a whole lot of nonsense.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Hashimura is responsible for the Node & Hypernova Project in VF-31 (forgetting the fact that VF-25 is already chosen as main VF by many fleets, garrisons and planets in Master File World at least). He also wrote that Alexei Kurakin, who founded GG and leaded SV Works, died in 2026 while testing YF-14 by himself. (Master File VF-22)
Yet, Hashimura wrote Kurakin died in 2036, no cause was provided. (Master File VF-4) :?
Living twice, throwing away the consistency or simple typing mistakes?
... somehow, I missed that little contradiction. I was probably too busy grinding my teeth over the variants that the VF-4 book came up with.

I've suspected ever since the VF-22 book that Master File's writers have started devoting less attention and effort to the books, because the ones they were working on were for fighters that were not nearly as well documented from the animated continuity. (Like how the VF-4 has all but one of its appearances in video games and manga, and how the VF-22 only has two official variants.)

(Maybe the Gundam Master Archive books are what's currently getting their A-game.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Even Master Files are non-canon, can the guys in SBCreative be consist and do more checking?
I appreciate their efforts trying to explain the whereabouts of Megaroad-1in Master File VF-4, even it is not considered as canon and that "explanation" brings new questions, but the inconsistency is just horrible.
They did a lot better with the earlier books... I don't know why the standards are slipping, but believe me I wish that I had the power to make them do a better job.

There were some silly errors even in the VF-1 book. They copied some of the contents from the old Sky Angels manual that Chiba-san wrote back in 1984, and if you look in the squadron colors section of the first VF-1 book you'll find a squadron assigned to SDF-3, which it claims is Vrlitwhai's ship. (Macross Chronicle and the Macross Frontier series indicate SDF-3 is the Megaroad-02.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
I have to admit that I am sensitive about these things, maybe that's the result of writing fan-fics and originals stories for more than a decade.
I can certainly empathize... as the translator for the Macross Mecha Manual, the contradictions drive me nuts, but the books dispense enough tech tidbits to keep me buying them. (My personal favorite so far is the VF-1 Vol.2 one "Space Wing", since that filled in the last piece necessary to calculate the fuel efficiency of the VF-1's FF-2001 engines!)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
The last time I saw this kind of discrepancy in mechanic things is the history of Dagger L.
When Destiny was on-air at early stage, Dagger L was described as a MS developed and produced in post-war period (This version is still exist on some websites). Then it was totally changed in Feb 2005 issue of Dengeki Hobby.
Dagger L were produced in large numbers by the time of Second Battle of Jachin Due, they were stationed on the Moon and ready for upcoming operation in PLANT Colony. Only the firing of GENESIS and fearing the possible ZAFT counterstrike prevented the deployment.

Few discrepancies appeared in the manual of Dark Dagger L MIA, but the majority of materials are not contradicting each other in a way like VF-31 now.
's all greek to me... believe it or not, I've never managed to get all the way through Gundam SEED. Kira just irritates me for some reason I can't put my finger on.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
No offense, can I say the "Monkey Model VF-25 Theory" is an assumption based on the (N)UN stance on VF-19E few years before The Ride?
Frontier needs several years of time, if counting the time for negotiating with Earth and getting the procurement passed on Frontier Congress behind the scenes. When Frontier was requesting for permission to manufacture VF-19E, it might be at the time that Ractence still had much influence or Vidirance somehow continued the older term even they were in power, VF-19EF was all Frontier could got.
I'm not entirely sure what aspect of it you're referring to.

The creators of Macross Frontier didn't use the term "monkey model" to describe it, but the VF-25's official development history does explicitly indicate that the New UN Government and New UN Forces had withheld key technological advances from the YF-24 Evolution specifications that they transmitted to the emigrant fleets and planetary governments. Macross Dynamite 7 had also established the existence of arms export restrictions and monkey models years before Macross Frontier came out. Macross the Ride just built on both of those when it established that the Macross Frontier fleet couldn't get around arms export restrictions that were preventing widespread deployment of the VF-19 and had to work within the law by developing a monkey model from the VF-19E.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
The timeline from Newtype stated that Megaroad-04 reached Windermere IV in Brisingr Cluster at the tip of Sagittarius Arm, after "drifted" in fold fault.
I don't know what did the Megaroad-04 fleet experienced after colonizing Eden, but that's not their proposed destination.
Ah, that infographic from the series takes a few liberties.

Eden was discovered and colonized several years before Megaroad-04 was completed. It was found in 2013 by a short-range emigration fleet and settled a couple months before the Megaroad-02 was finished.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
In Macross F TV Version Novel Vol.4, when Quarter arrived at Gallia System, the crew doubt the report that a sudden fold fault incident destroyed Gallia 4. Bobby assumed that the fault was man-made while Cathy wondered whether it was possible or not.
Now THAT would be inconsistent with what the official explanations of fold fault say they can cause... but it may be based on an early explanation of dimension eater weapons where it was suggested they produced a temporary fold fault in realspace that collapsed back into fold space. The later, official explanations changed it into being only a weaponized, super-intense fold effect.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Then Mina talked about the Great Wall Hypothesis: Some parts of fold fault was the creation of Protoculture. By using some insanely powerful fold jammer or weapon, they could create barriers to halt the advance of Zentradi fleets and protect important systems. The hypothesis tried to explain why human discovered fold fault so lately, because Earth might be just another outback planet, Stellar Empire/Republic never gave a damn about it, there was no need to cover Earth with Great Wall. And the fold fault barrier concept was proved possible in lab conditions.
Well, we know for a fact in official canon that the ancient Protoculture have done that at least on a level which would permit them to isolate individual planets. Uroboros seems to have had an intense, artificial fold fault for isolating the planet and preventing anyone from unsealing the Fold Evil they'd buried under the Madis glacier on the planet's surface. The ability, like many other overtechnology developments, may have been based on their study of the Vajra... who ARE known to be able to produce artificial fold faults and employ them as a defensive barrier. (See Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 08A "Space Folds".)

Macross Chronicle is, somewhat unhelpfully, in two minds about the consequences of passing through fold faults. I'd assume the reason for the discrepancy is that fold faults come in different severities. In some cases it describes them as being impassible and that ships trying could be destroyed trying, while in others it asserts that ships can pass through them but with a great increase in the disparity between subjective and objective time for the folding ship and/or a risk of being damaged or destroyed. Frustratingly, sometimes both explanations of fold faults appear side-by-side on the same page. The Macross Frontier TV series also played it both ways, when they were talking about sending the Macross Quarter to Gallia IV. The projected course showed a course in which the ship would pass through some fold faults while avoiding others. The only logical explanation I can think of for this is that some fold faults are more severe than others, and thus some are outright impassable while the rest are more like annoying or slightly dangerous. Macross Chronicle does suggest that fold faults are found all around the galaxy, and that human technology simply wasn't developed enough to detect them properly when they first started out. (The Zentradi, according to Kawamori, have known about fold faults all along but since a fold fault doesn't fit into their "enemy or not" mindset they ignored them.)

Uroboros's "Uroboros Aurora" fold fault was described as the impassible type, which would support Mina's theory, though it seemed to have deteriorated to the point of only intermittently protecting the planet. Windermere IV was also conspicuously isolated by fold faults around the entire planet, and that was also known to be a former Protoculture domain. It seems too much to be a coincidence, IMO.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Later Master Files like VF-25 and VF-31 seemed elaborate this idea.
The existance of fold fault limited FTL travel into certain routes, some of these were seen as routes or rendezvous points used by Zentradi. Many squadrons or air groups stationed in systems near or at these locations received VF-25 earlier than other units, these units were commonly known as Gatekeepers. (Master File VF-25)

Master File VF-31 introduced a new fold feature, Nodes. They were described as Protoculture galactic highways discovered in 2050s, they shorten the trip across the stars.
Official sources do suggest the ancient Protoculture were grappling with ways to overcome the fold fault problem that was one of the major factors in their Stellar Republic becoming so spread out that it split in two and started its civil war. Fold quartz was apparently the magic bullet solution to the problem.

I think the "nodes" they're talking about are the point-to-point fold portals the ruins in the Brisingr cluster were creating, which Walkure used to reach, and escape, Windermere IV. They seem to be zero-time fold portals to connect the Brisingr cluster, which would eliminate the fold fault problem altogether.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
TOMYTEC version treat NUNS as idlots.
Let's be fair to TOMYTEC... the Macross Frontier series and Macross Delta series have both had their PMC protagonists badmouthing the NUNS. (Ozma, at least, had good reason for bad feeling since he ended up cashiered out of the service for assaulting one of the 117th Research Fleet's sponsors.)

It felt a bit hypocritical to me, for Ozma to talk down about the NUNS when the only thing preventing them from being able to fight the Vajra effectively was not having VF-25s yet... VF-25s that Ozma and all of the SMS branch from Macross Frontier had on loan from the NUNS for testing.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Don't forget the MDE Gun Matrix on VF-171EX, it shoots heavy quantum beams.
That's a really good point. Yeah, clearly you don't even need a Stage II engine to fire a low-to-medium power heavy quantum beam weapon.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm
Comparing to the heavy (in terms of armament and weight) VF-14, VF-11 was a multi-role light or medium fighter.
Their roles were so different. VF-11 can handle regular battle pods/suit well, VF-14 has the capacity, firepower and thrust to conduct heavy assaults or long-range mission.
Yet UNS could pit them against each other in Nova Project...were the requirements of the project so few or so low that both of them can fulfill them all with no problem?
Project Nova was looking for a next-gen main VF for a new wave of emigration fleets. Ever since the This is Animation Special: Macross Plus book rewrote some of the VF development history and established the new ongoing timeline started by Macross Plus and Macross 7, the (New) UN Forces started this trend that they alternate between wanting their main VF to be an all-regime fighter like the VF-1 and VF-11, or a variable fighter optimized for either atmosphere or space. It seems to be an idea they picked up from Macross II's creators.

Since the goal of Project Nova was to select a next main fighter for the third wave of emigration fleets, I suspect the reason for the odd disparity between the VF-11 and VF-14 was that Shinsei Industry was banking on the (New) UN Forces going for an all-regime fighter like the VF-1 while General Galaxy was looking at the needs of a fleet in transit, which would be entirely space-based operations. The VF-11 is still a small airframe, optimized for aerial combat and needs FAST packs to provide enough fuel for long-duration space operations. The VF-14 very much a space fighter, with its larger airframe taking the VF-4 approach of maximizing internal space for fuel so it doesn't need FAST packs or conformal fuel tanks. Both companies looked at the same requirements and came up with 2 totally different ideas of what aspects were most important.
The Macross Mecha Manual
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