Multiplying Divisions with Zeon

[Zeonista]

What this suggests, then, is that the limited number of mobile suits are kept at major bases where they can be rapidly dispatched aboard Gaw carriers. Out in the field, most of the ground forces seem to be Magella Attack tanks and other conventional weapons, with maybe one or two Zakus here and there.

This makes a lot of sense; most sources agree that (during the One Year War, at least) mobile suits are rare, valuable, and powerful units. To get the most bang out of your buck for them, you'd want your mobile suits to be in combat as often as is logistically feasible. In a conventional campaign that'd mean keeping them on the front lines, but in a place like North America in September 0079, which is at least nominally under Zeon control (and thus doesn't really have a front line) keeping them in reserve as a rapid-reaction force seems like the best way to use them. The game them becomes a matter of making sure you only engage the enemy in situations that favor you -- Zeon wants to force decisive confrontations where their Zakus can turn the tide in their favor, while the Federation wants to grind Zeon away through attrition and guerrilla tactics.

This makes sense for me too, for much the same reasons as supplied by Mark & Kirby. It's also worth noting that very few of the OYW Zeon MS are capable of powered flight in Earth atmosphere. The Gaws are not only convenient transport, they are necessary for the MS to make a timely appearance at all, instead of marching on foot. So the Gaws are an unsung lynchpin of ZMF strategic and tactical planning. Without them, the smaller and shorter-ranged transports aren't able to fill in the gap, and things become grim for the Zeons earthside. (None of the remnant forces featured in later anime have Gaws.)

For myself, I'd like to know then how much "tail" a Zeon mechanized division could drawn on in aerial terms. The panzer divisions serving as the model had less "tail" and more "teeth" compared to a 1944 US armored division, but it was the American division that could better sustain operations due to abundant ground transport and aerial supply to second-stage areas.

toysdream: I don't think Garma's initial attack force was too small. For what was porbably a piick-up force it seemed adequate to the task. IIRC until Amuro quit whining and launched in the Gundam, Garma's force was winning, having pinned down the other 2 MS and starting to directly attack White Base. Now, Garma's attack force for the "night ambush" that destroyed him was very inadequate! Even the Midnight Fenrir couldn't save him, right Gelgoog Jaeger? (That of course was Char's fault, since he set up Garma to fail.) White Base seems to have survived their global trot to Odessa because the ZMF's over-stretched divisional commanders couldn't put together a "legged ship hunt" of sufficient strength to do the job right. Hence the appearance of Ranba Ral's force....

[Gelgoog Jager]

It's also worth noting that very few of the OYW Zeon MS are capable of powered flight in Earth atmosphere. The Gaws are not only convenient transport, they are necessary for the MS to make a timely appearance at all, instead of marching on foot. So the Gaws are an unsung lynchpin of ZMF strategic and tactical planning. Without them, the smaller and shorter-ranged transports aren't able to fill in the gap, and things become grim for the Zeons earthside. (None of the remnant forces featured in later anime have Gaws.)

toysdream: I don't think Garma's initial attack force was too small. For what was porbably a piick-up force it seemed adequate to the task. IIRC until Amuro quit whining and launched in the Gundam, Garma's force was winning, having pinned down the other 2 MS and starting to directly attack White Base. Now, Garma's attack force for the "night ambush" that destroyed him was very inadequate! Even the Midnight Fenrir couldn't save him, right Gelgoog Jaeger? (That of course was Char's fault, since he set up Garma to fail.) White Base seems to have survived their global trot to Odessa because the ZMF's over-stretched divisional commanders couldn't put together a "legged ship hunt" of sufficient strength to do the job right. Hence the appearance of Ranba Ral's force....

Actually, Unicorn not only showed that Fat Uncles can largely act replace Gaws for drop operations, but also that a Dodai SFS can travel over very long distances, as indicated by the forces that seemed to launch from some mountain area in Asia and yet manage to go all the way to Torrington Base. They might have been resupplied at one point though, but still rpvoes that MS forces could also be moved around that way.

Regarding Garma's forces, I think that much like the SAF, the EAF only a minimal amount MS, and at least the AAF and TAF consist largely, and in some areas exclusively, of non-MS weapons. the NAF is probably the EAF branch with most MS proportional to the overall size of the branch.

In turn this could mean that MAF forces like M'Quve's rely more on MS and fixed weapons, which probably indicates a lower amount of personnel comapred to the other Zeon military branches.

Either way, I can't help but think that the low amount of personnel in general is one of reasons the Magella Attack Tanks were designed to only require a single pilot on the Magella Top cockpit.

[Evex]

I'm not sure if this helps answer any questions in this topic, but I figured that these scans I found might help. The Scans come from Another Century Chronicle Vol.1 One Year War U.C. 0079-0080. Most of these scans are not translated, so you'll need some one who can translate. I'm also unsure of how "official" this book is in terms of bandai/sunrise terms.

Earth Landing Operation
Earth Landing Operation

Odessa Campaign
Odessa Campaign

Zeon Rank break down ?

Hope these help out with things.

[Darrien]

As for other ships of the Dolos class, Tomino's Gundam novels mention another one called Midro (Midlo?). This carrier participates in the defense of Solomon, deploying fifty Zakus and several Gattle and Jicco squadrons.

Personally, I've always used Midolo for this one. I haven't seen the actual kana used for it, but I'd imagine it'd be something along the lines of ミドロ, and it keeps the "dolo" intact as with the other two.

[Gelgoog Jager]

And speaking of the Dolos class, is there any chance one or both of these carriers were rebuilt after the war? The 0081 OVA does seem to indicate that after being "sunk" they remained largely in one piece and still operational to some extent. Besides, the resources already spent building it in the first place might justify rebuilding it.

I suppose the same could be true for the drifting Gwazine seen in Zeta, though the later might have been abandoned further away from Side 3 (it would be useful to know which specific Gwazine it was if mentioned at all). If it happened to be the Gwaden, that could perfectly explain why it wasn't recovered by the RoZ.

[Nebfer]

Also from Entertainment Bible 39, and hard to reconcile with the above, is the claim that Zeon's first landing operation succeeded in landing 3200 soldiers, 220 mobile suits, and 380 tanks. The "Another Century Chronicle" books, which slavishly follow EB 39's numbers, provide a detailed org chart for a typical Terrestrial Mobile Division which adds up to exactly 220 mobile suits.

And Hobby Japan's "Record of the One Year War" RPG sourcebook includes a chart of total Zeon and Federation losses during all the landing operations; this tells us that Zeon lost 78 mobile suits and 40,000 soldiers in the landing process, and successfully landed 762 mobile suits and 810,000 soldiers. That means the entire landing force would consist of 840 mobile suits and 850,000 soldiers.

Most of the figures in the Hobby Japan sourcebook are based on those from EB 39, and this total seems compatible with EB 39's figures for the first landing operation. Taken together, they give us a range of 160-220 mobile suits per Terrestrial Mobile Division, so a figure of 182 machines would be well within the mainstream.

-- Mark

Rise from the dead...

I had a thought on this.
The amount of troops assigned for the landings is supposedly 850,000, though only 5 divisions are mentioned the Terrestrial Mobile Divisions, which are seemingly based off the Panzer Division. And 5 divisions is way to few to try and take an area the size of earth. Never mind the fact that if their are only 5 divisions in total the amount of forces used would indicate that each division was controlling 170,000 men, indicating that the Divisions are in Name only and are in fact a corps or a small army by any other means (note In WW2 a Japanese Army (Gun) was equivalent to a Western Corps).

If we assume that these are really just divisions then their would have to be a lot more of them that the supposed 5 we hear about. As most divisions are around 15,000 troops so 5 divisions would have 75,000 troops, even if we add say 13,000 extra men to each for higher level support elements that's only 140,000 troops. Even at this 28,000 troops per division, theirs 30 divisions worth of troops earmarked for the landings.

My thought its that the Mobile divisions are effectively the Panzer Divisions of Zeon, where the mobile suits are theoretically concentrated and are well known (not surprising considering what their based on), the other divisions are just infantry divisions, motorized if you want, with these divisions being much less well known much like the generic German infantry divisions of WW2. These divisions would have few if any mobile suits but would contain the bulk of Zeons infantry and armor.

So effectively theirs 5 "Mobile suit" divisions and a undetermined number of other divisions, much like their was some 50 panzer and panzer grenadier divisions and some 200 infantry divisions.

Effectively the Mobile divisions form the Spearhead of the assault or response force, with the other "divisions" the follow up forces and or providing supporting elements or even garrison forces.

Though an alternative is that Zeon only did make the 5 divisions that we know of, and had tons of smaller commands to support them... making the Divisions a quasi higher level unit than it typically would be. For example a single Mobile Division might be allotted dozens of battalion sized Infantry and Armor units... A sort of extreme version of the US army in WW2 where divisions could often count on multiple battalions of extra infantry and tanks if they needed it (even though US infantry divisions did not have organic armor, the amount of non divisional tank units they could call upon made each infantry division the equivalent of a Panzer Division or at lest a Panzergrenadier Division...).

The US had out side of it's 89 divisions (of which 67 infantry, 16 armored, 5 airborne and a mountain), 65 Tank battalions, 73 Tank Destroyer Battalions (towed or self propelled), 144 infantry battalions (armored, airborne, infantry, ect), over 300 artillery battalions, 240 engineer battalions and over 300 anti aircraft battalions, at lest that was the active units at the end of 1944.

[toysdream]

Part of this is, I think, due to the colossal rank deflation in the Zeon forces - at least up until Garma's death, their entire Earth force is nominally commanded by the equivalent of an army colonel. Anyway, it seems pretty clear that the five mobile suit divisions are supplemented by lots more conventional forces. But based on the recent info I discussed at the start of this thread, it looks like these divisions actually only have one regiment of mobile suits apiece, so even when they're supplemented with a bunch of other conventional hardware you might still end up with a division-scale force.

Since these mobile suits are spread out so thinly, one imagines they'd be detached to smaller local forces. If each Terrestrial Mobile Division has one regiment of mobile suits, divided into two or more battalions like a panzer divisions, then for a case like Zeon's Asian forces - which landed at three different points in Southeast Asia and Oceania - you'd expect to have one battalion based around each landing point, and probably smaller subdivisions like individual companies assigned to major bases. At every level of the food chain, the tiny mobile suit group would be accompanied by a much larger number of conventional forces - witness how in First Gundam, Garma would often deploy a couple of Zakus supported by a dozen Magella Attack tanks.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

Yes, the idea of Zeon using five (count 'em, five) divisions to conquer all of Earth's land mass does seem ludicrous matched to WW II standards. The Japanese force-equivalent or near-equivalent meanings don't help much either, and the story writers toss around the terms a little too casually. After all, the amount of troops given in the description quoted above suggest a much larger force than five mobile divisions. A modern US armored or mechanized infantry division deployed for battle sub-divides into 3 "regimental combat teams (RCT)" consisting of infantry, armor, artillery, and transport units which all operate as 1 force. (This organization was adapted in WW II following observation of the German kampfgruppe model, which gave them a tactical flexibility that proved very troublesome to the Allies at times! ) Each RCT has attached specialized units as well, and can call on outside units (air transport, air support, special forces) as needed & available. So a single US division deployed for operations can actually mean a lot more troops than 1 actual division.

However, to focus on the "numbers" issue some, the current U.S. Army, which is one of the largest and most battle ready armies in the world, has less than 12 divisions in total, or at least had them in 2001. Toss in several Marine brigades and a reinforced regiment's amount of Special Forces , and that's it for ground-pounders! (Yes, there are Reserve units and the National Guard, but such forces were not deployed by the ZMF on Earth. One wonders about the EFF, in that respect, but that's a different topic.) How can the good ol' USA hope to avail, against the Enemy Horde du jour bristling with cheap firepower, with such thin numbers? Why, they use applied technology, and the ability to deliver extra hurt via air power when needed. (The army of Iraq has unwillingly served as a demonstration of the force-multiplier aspects thereof a few times.)

In that respect, might the ZMF, despite the landing of five divisions, have intended to use technology and vehicle-delivered extra firepower as a force multiplier to give them an edge? Mobile land warfare in the post-blitzkrieg era has predicated a mechanized attack force rapidly advancing to secure a series of objectives despite being outnumbered. Force concentration at the points of attack, plus disruption of enemy communications and mobility, aid the mobile attacking force in attaining its objectives. (It also helps if the defense is not prepared for that attack, and is unable to coordinate larger numbers effectively before HQ panics and throws in the towel.) The One Year War basically had the ZMF taking that tradition and running with it.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Personally I think that Zeon's use of lunar mass drivers played an essential role in "softening" any targets in the path of the Earth invasion:

The Zeon forces launched a two-front blitzkrieg land offensive against the Federation Forces, who were still in a state of chaos due to the colony drop. One part of this offensive was a direct invasion of North America, where the Federation Forces had sustained a devastating blow, and the other was the kind of technological guerilla warfare of which only the Zeon forces were capable. Using underground mass drivers which had been converted for military use, they carried out wide-area carpet bombing from the lunar surface onto China and the former Soviet Union.

These underground mass drivers were better protected than exposed types. Since the Federation Forces could no longer use nuclear weapons, the ground bombing continued for a long period before the mass drivers were destroyed by Federation Forces counterattacks.

In the meantime, the Federation Forces' strongest concentration of ground forces sustained a severe blow, and they had no choice but to withdraw to Europe and the South Asia region. The Zeon forces thus succeeded in landing ground forces in the void that extended from the former Soviet Union to China's Tien Shan mountains.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ntury.html

With that kind of aerial (or is it orbital?) support, any EF military bases could have been heavily damaged before any Zeon troops actually moved in, essentially leaving the TAF more of mopping up role of whatever was left standing. At the same time, this would have forced the EF to resort to a guerilla warfare, as well as turning land battleships, such as Big Tray, into key assets, which provided a fortified mobile HQ with long range artillery support capabilities, which could not be easily destroyable through the use orbital bombardments.

[Zeonista]

Personally I think that Zeon's use of lunar mass drivers played an essential role in "softening" any targets in the path of the Earth invasion:

The Zeon forces launched a two-front blitzkrieg land offensive against the Federation Forces, who were still in a state of chaos due to the colony drop. One part of this offensive was a direct invasion of North America, where the Federation Forces had sustained a devastating blow, and the other was the kind of technological guerilla warfare of which only the Zeon forces were capable. Using underground mass drivers which had been converted for military use, they carried out wide-area carpet bombing from the lunar surface onto China and the former Soviet Union.

These underground mass drivers were better protected than exposed types. Since the Federation Forces could no longer use nuclear weapons, the ground bombing continued for a long period before the mass drivers were destroyed by Federation Forces counterattacks.

In the meantime, the Federation Forces' strongest concentration of ground forces sustained a severe blow, and they had no choice but to withdraw to Europe and the South Asia region. The Zeon forces thus succeeded in landing ground forces in the void that extended from the former Soviet Union to China's Tien Shan mountains.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ntury.html

With that kind of aerial (or is it orbital?) support, any EF military bases could have been heavily damaged before any Zeon troops actually moved in, essentially leaving the TAF more of mopping up role of whatever was left standing. At the same time, this would have forced the EF to resort to a guerilla warfare, as well as turning land battleships, such as Big Tray, into key assets, which provided a fortified mobile HQ with long range artillery support capabilities, which could not be easily destroyable through the use orbital bombardments.

That's right! The Zeon invasion force took advantage of the disruption caused by Operation British, and preliminary bombardment from the mass drivers could have also caused great disruption of the communications and massed EFF formations. The story of events concerning the invasion make it clear that the EFF was not able to greet the landing invasion force with abundant firepower at the drop zones. A good way to prevent it would be to disrupt the command and communication ability with the meteors, and then use the Minovsky particle clouds again as cover to move in and cut up the EFF forces in Central Asia which were still waiting for comprehensible orders.