Thoughts on mobile weapon's weapon loadout?

[Silpasan]

I've been seeing a tendencies of an mecha designer to outfit their mecha with weapons loadout that fits their philosophy of combat or design thoughts. Most of the mechanic designer have variation on what they put on their mech base on the show's tech/mission role/or just whatever mood they're in (Okawara,Fukushi,Etc.) Though some have a very strict philosophy that i think can be divide into three types and their foremost notable user : Simple/Barebones mission specific style of Katoki Hajime / middle/multipurpose style of Yutaka Izubuchi / Heavyarm/attacking style of Mika Akitaka.

Katoki's Barebone, mission specific style is basically just give the ms their mission specific weapon. eg;FAZZ having only the main mega cannon and various missile for middle/close-in. defense for Even an heavy-armed ms like the ksatriya just with basic range-specific weapon like melee(beam saber) middle range(beam cannon) Longrange (Funnels) and that's it. In some case (mostly his redesign/cleanup for another mecha designer) he even took out secondary weapon leaving it with just the mission specific weapon eg; his gundam redesign from endless waltz (taking melee off heavyarms,taking machiengun off sandrock). If I remember right in some interview (maybe gundam sentinels?) He mention that he see the ms/ma as more like a space shuttle with weapon that has to be realistically drive, Not a humongous mecha that somehow move like a human or do some impossible move with just a regular control stick like we saw in the cockpit. He also believe in not putting too much shit on or things will go wrong (murphy's law yea!) or making pilot do some unintended stupid move(Artilery unit trying to beam sabered a melee suit)resulting in the simplistic weapon loadout on his mecha

Yutaka iZubuchi on the otherhand kinda have an multipurpose/middlearm weapon loadout. Most prominent of this is the ms from Char's counter attack. A variety of rifle, grenades, shield , beam saber , heat weapon,a small number of missile and funnels on almost every ms to suit their specific needs of the moment. His main inspiration seems to be coming from from real-world infantry(reflecting in his many mecha hand-held weapon) and being mecha with much higher carrying capacity than a human would, outfit them with various purpose weapon.

Mika Akitaka is the king of heavy-arming things to the point of being ridiculous.(ZZ mecha take the trophys here.)Even the mass production ms having plentiful of firepower eg; Gaza-D with 2*14-tube missile pod and dont even get me start on the zssa. Neue Ziel and Doven Wolves take the cake for having A BACKUP OF A BACKUP OF THEIR SECONDARY WEAPON. (Doven got a hidden beamgun arm inside the main wire guide beamgun arm that are carrying the mega launcher. Neue Ziel having 2-pairs of hidden arm for baking up the main pair of arm which isn't even its main weapon.) Some are kinda cool seeing as they are weapons with different purpose like those aforementioned ones, though some kinda leaving me scratching my head. (Geymalk, having beam guns are cool but having dozen loads of them with equal firepower and range is kinda funny when you can have other role-specific weapons)

I knows it's kinda base on your experience. I prefer katoki's loadout (Though sometimes i feel its too underhand and could benefit from some backup weapon) because I myself prefer simple loadout whenever i go BB guns or doing some IPSC shooting at the range(and also on action/shooting games LOLs) since I seem to be able to do better when I mostly rely on a single main tactic and my secondary weapon/tactic were just for getting me out of messy situation back to using my main tactic. Though I Realize many people are great at using and adapting various weapon and tactics to meet their need at the moment.(Whether in real-world shooting/Military training/BB gun or Computer gamings in general)

So what's Your thought and preference on the matters? and sorry for my gratuitous english. I still have alot to learn haha.And it doesn't have to only be about gundam, maybe for mecha in general is fine. Thanks.

[flamingtroll]

Katoki's Barebone, mission specific style is basically just give the ms their mission specific weapon.

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[Calubin_175]

Both the Katoki's S Gundam and Kshatriya are just adaptations of Akita'a ZZ Gundam and Quin Mantha respectively so I don't see them as pure Katoki designs, hence they be won't registered as any heavy loadout MS into his portfolio. So far, I would only register the Xeku Zwei as one of Katoki's heavy loadout MS.

It is true that Katoki's 0096 designs do appear more barebone than Akita and Izubuchi's 0088-93 designs. However, this may be rationalised by the in-universe decline of military resources.

As for the V2 Gundam, the weapons are optional, so it won't really count.

[Silpasan]

LOL yea those are kind of well-armed But other than the Fa Unicorn and the V2 assault buster
which I think were design to be one-man army per the shortage of MS on their side in that time-frame of their respective story. I still see the other as just having many type of
Range-specific weapon. The eins never mount all that stuff at once./ The EXs has the beam
smart gun+ reflector incom system for long-range/ hip beam per medium /vulcan per ciws/
back beam per the cruiser mode only and saber per melee,So one weapon per one range.

I call it the "barebone style" because regardless of actual weapon number they're still usually one
(or a pair of) weapon per one range on katoki's MS. As I said, It isn't the same (at least to me)
As Mika Akitaka designs. Eg; the Doven Wolfs having backups hand for the main hand-beam
gun (which in turn are their secondary beam weapon to their beam rifle)
or the Geymalk having 20+ beam guns with most of them having less than 30% difference
in energy and range.

Also, those are special one-off machines. I think you can really see the difference in their weapon
loadout philosophy in their grunt design from the same time frame
eg; compare Katoki's Nero to Izubuchi's Jegan to Akitaka's GM-III.
But all this are just my opinion ,YMMV haha

[Silpasan]

And had anyone saw the machanic designers comment on this topic? the only one I know/read of is Katoki's interview on Gundam Sentinels (I don't know the original source because I read it from a compile book of translate Gundam Sentinel story and side materials in my country) taking about the nature of MS as space-faring vehicles and his believes in Murphy's law of keeping it simple and such. Comments from other designer would be a pleasure to read

[nacho-wan]

I for one, think that MS should have more fixed mounted weapons. Their large frame should allow for multiple attack vectors even if the arms are chopped. MS have too much dependency on their hands IMO. For those that had read the manga, the Crossbone Gundam is good example of not depending only on hand held weapons.

Because of this, I like Izubuki's Char's Counter style MS. Even the shield carries additional weaponary. Diversity is good, specially when you can encounter enemy units that can diffuse your beam based attacks (the gas granades from 00 or the I-field).

As for Katoki, I kind of thought he liked to diversify. I mean both the S Gundam and the Zeta plus had the handheld guns for long ange combat and the hip mounted cannons for medium range while kepping the saber for meelee. True, if they were very diversified weapon layout they should feature a pair of missile launchers.

[InjuredPelican]

After seeing jet fighters in real life, and just how many weapons, and how may different weapons they have, I definitely feel MS should in general have many armaments. I also second the motion for more built in equipment. How many MS would benefit from built in beam blades, instead of just hand held? If a machine is going to have multiple limbs, each one should be able to either attack or defend. But I've always loved mecha with lots of weapons, but still relatively compact designs, like SEED suits and CCA era suits.

[J-Lead]

Both the Katoki's S Gundam and Kshatriya are just adaptations of Akita'a ZZ Gundam and Quin Mantha respectively so I don't see them as pure Katoki designs, hence they be won't registered as any heavy loadout MS into his portfolio. So far, I would only register the Xeku Zwei as one of Katoki's heavy loadout MS.

The Kshyatriya I'll begrudgingly give you, but the S? I don't see any resemblance between it and the ZZ save for maybe the knees and backpack beam cannons, and even then, I'm kind of forcing the comparison. About the only thing that would lead someone to believe that the S is a ZZ adaptation is the separating mechanic, but by that logic, the ZZ is a clone of the RX-78-2 by proxy.

If anything, I'd say it's more closely related to the Zeta Gundam, given it's construction (generators in the legs, but also some in the shoulders) and the tail binder, but then it's rendered moot given that the application of the concept is different taking the transformation mechanic into consideration.

S Gundam and it's upgraded successor have their own pretty unique identity, and most definitely go under Katoki's portfolio.

[schwarz ritter]

The only mobile suit from Gundam Sentinel I felt like from ZZ was the FAZZ. The S Gundam, as fellow J-Lead says above me, is original and feels like a true war machine unlike the ZZ mechs. The influences of Quin Mantha on Kshatriya are obvious, however, and while I think its badass, it is still just another homage to ZZ.

S Gundam is unique and untouchable.

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

I think the Zaku from gundam the origin is pretty cool, it has machine guns all over. It has that western mech feel(you know how tanks have the main gun and then secondary weapons.) I always find it odd that when I watch gundam shows they only have the main weapon and beam saber, besides vulcan guns there is no secondary weapons

[blind_dead_mcjones]

After seeing jet fighters in real life, and just how many weapons, and how may different weapons they have, I definitely feel MS should in general have many armaments. I also second the motion for more built in equipment. How many MS would benefit from built in beam blades, instead of just hand held? If a machine is going to have multiple limbs, each one should be able to either attack or defend. But I've always loved mecha with lots of weapons, but still relatively compact designs, like SEED suits and CCA era suits.

it should be noted that while jet fighters have the option of carrying many different weapons, it can't carry all of them at once and what weapons it uses are largely determined by what role it will serve during a given mission (if its being configured for ground attack it will use bombs, rockets and/or air to ground missiles, for a CAP it will use long range air-to-air missiles and external fuel tanks to maximise the ammount of time it can remain airborne, anti ship will involve torpedos or anti-ship missiles, and so on and so forth, the one constant 'primary' armament in all roles being a couple of short range air-to-air missiles for self defence)

in addition many of an aircrafts 'primary' weapons are one use/disposable, with the only built in armament being its gattling gun/revolver cannon, which is purely the aircraft equivalent of a personal defence weapon.

with all that in mind, most of katokis' mobile suit designs are the ones that adhere closest to that philosophy, while they have the bare minimum of built in armaments they do have many different options in regards to primary offensive armaments and can be tailored to a degree for different roles

I think the Zaku from gundam the origin is pretty cool, it has machine guns all over. It has that western mech feel(you know how tanks have the main gun and then secondary weapons.) I always find it odd that when I watch gundam shows they only have the main weapon and beam saber, besides vulcan guns there is no secondary weapons

um....those secondary weapons on tanks fulfill the same function that the vulcan guns do on mobile suits, defence against infantry.

[nacho-wan]

@blind_dead_mcjones maybe you are right: weapon load should be related to mission requierements. However I think that tHeWasTeDYouTh refered to the fact that for 20 ton machines, MS have very few weapons. As Kira repetedly demostrated in CE, you just take the arm and the machine is out of commision.

THis is why I love the Izubuki school of mecha (examplified in CCA): even the shields have secondary guns to optimize the payload of each suit.

[blind_dead_mcjones]

@blind_dead_mcjones maybe you are right: weapon load should be related to mission requierements. However I think that tHeWasTeDYouTh refered to the fact that for 20 ton machines, MS have very few weapons. As Kira repetedly demostrated in CE, you just take the arm and the machine is out of commision.

tanks and jet aircraft when fully loaded also weigh around 20-30 tonnes, and being robbed of one component usually puts them out of commission as well (to say nothing of when a person loses an arm or leg in battle, in which case they're lucky just to be alive.)

if anything i consider such limitations with mecha (being robbed of a limb drastically reducing fighting ability) when damaged consistent with the limitations of real world vehicles used in warfare, and thus adds a small layer of believability

[nacho-wan]

I kind of follow your argument here, but if you go all the trouble to make such a complex device as a giant humanoid robot, why stuck to the limitations of current weaponry when it is relatively simple to include additional guns?

[blind_dead_mcjones]

I kind of follow your argument here, but if you go all the trouble to make such a complex device as a giant humanoid robot, why stuck to the limitations of current weaponry when it is relatively simple to include additional guns?

because after the end of world war II people realised that the idea of 'more guns = more effective in battle' is a tad flawed and impractical, plus as has been proven many times, the 'less is more' approach tends to yield better results at far less cost

case in point: the B-17 flying fortress, that thing had guns mounted everywhere on it and while it did claim the most enemy aircraft destroyed, it also suffered the highest losses (should be noted that bombers in general had to fly in massive groups in order for enough of them to drop enough bombs to any meaningful damage to an urban area on a given day)

compare and contrast with the AC-130 gunship, has no provisions for bombs at all, and sports far fewer armaments as well (in addition all of said armaments poke out the left side of the fuselage rather being mounted all over) yet five of these are more than capable of leveling an entire central business district in roughly 20 minutes without having to expose themselves to the short range air defences that WWII bombers had to wade through

(side note: adding more guns also adds additional weight, which slows the vehicle they're fixed to down further, hampering their ability to avoid incomming fire)

[ydawg314]

blind_dead_mcjones makes a lot of sense. The whole point a of mobile suit is to be "mobile". The added weapons requiring the ms to support the added weight of ammo and fuel means the vehicle will most likely have to be bigger and slower. Wouldn't this be the reason why they have mobile armors and gunships?

This thought is shown in UC as ms are developed to be smaller and more nimble than their predecessors. Because beam rifles can shoot through nearly anything ms are designed to just dip shots rather than try to block them. Knowing ms are not even supposed to get shot, why would designers and pilots need to worry about arms being destroyed.

Also correct me if im wrong but Minovsky particles also limit the types of weapons that can be used effectively. The only weapons which can be used are really melee weapons, and projectile weapons; no smart missiles. Strip an attack helicopter of its missiles and you would most likely only have a machine gun resembling vulcans.

Also just my person personal opinion... The whole point of a mobile suit is to have a weapon which moves similar to how humans naturally move so they can be operated with more precision. Adding more weapons than a human would usually fight with effectively might complicate controls. in the game i'm developing (yes like 3 years old now) its much harder to pilot a ms with a ton of weapons than it is to do one with one main gun and a secondary gun. while you can do it, it is more trouble than its worth.

[InjuredPelican]

This thought is shown in UC as ms are developed to be smaller and more nimble than their predecessors. Because beam rifles can shoot through nearly anything ms are designed to just dip shots rather than try to block them. Knowing ms are not even supposed to get shot, why would designers and pilots need to worry about arms being destroyed.

Also correct me if im wrong but Minovsky particles also limit the types of weapons that can be used effectively. The only weapons which can be used are really melee weapons, and projectile weapons; no smart missiles. Strip an attack helicopter of its missiles and you would most likely only have a machine gun resembling vulcans.

Also just my person personal opinion... The whole point of a mobile suit is to have a weapon which moves similar to how humans naturally move so they can be operated with more precision. Adding more weapons than a human would usually fight with effectively might complicate controls. in the game i'm developing (yes like 3 years old now) its much harder to pilot a ms with a ton of weapons than it is to do one with one main gun and a secondary gun. while you can do it, it is more trouble than its worth.

With the "mobile" concept in focus, I am fully behind you. I've always thought MS should be machines that do everything to not get hit by moving in all directions at any time, like a human can. For my own personal mecha designs, I've always tried to design machines with as little profile and as much speed as possible.

With human armaments, their are load-outs that feature many back up weapons: a main rifle, with grenade attachment. many soldiers have back up pistols, a knife, and grenades as well. So Perhaps MS should have only one main weapon, but multiple support weapons as well. And of course, most teams have several specialists to back each other up.

[Louise1]

I for one, think that MS should have more fixed mounted weapons. Their large frame should allow for multiple attack vectors even if the arms are chopped. MS have too much dependency on their hands IMO. For those that had read the manga, the Crossbone Gundam is good example of not depending only on hand held weapons.

Because of this, I like Izubuki's Char's Counter style MS. Even the shield carries additional weaponary. Diversity is good, specially when you can encounter enemy units that can diffuse your beam based attacks (the gas granades from 00 or the I-field).

As for Katoki, I kind of thought he liked to diversify. I mean both the S Gundam and the Zeta plus had the handheld guns for long ange combat and the hip mounted cannons for medium range while kepping the saber for meelee. True, if they were very diversified weapon layout they should feature a pair of missile launchers.

What are mounted weapons by the way?

[PowerdGNFlag]

I for one, think that MS should have more fixed mounted weapons. Their large frame should allow for multiple attack vectors even if the arms are chopped. MS have too much dependency on their hands IMO. For those that had read the manga, the Crossbone Gundam is good example of not depending only on hand held weapons.

Because of this, I like Izubuki's Char's Counter style MS. Even the shield carries additional weaponary. Diversity is good, specially when you can encounter enemy units that can diffuse your beam based attacks (the gas granades from 00 or the I-field).

As for Katoki, I kind of thought he liked to diversify. I mean both the S Gundam and the Zeta plus had the handheld guns for long ange combat and the hip mounted cannons for medium range while kepping the saber for meelee. True, if they were very diversified weapon layout they should feature a pair of missile launchers.

What are mounted weapons by the way?

Mounted weapons=non-handheld weapons, I guess? (Under the Burke/MAHQ MS profile scheme they are listed under Fixed Armaments.)

But for me the biggest flaw of fixed weapons is their limited range. Considering the Crossbone example (the X1, in this case). If both of its arms are chopped off:
-head/chest vulcan guns are useless as primary weapons (but can be used to stall enemies/damage if enemy is lightly-armored)
-scissor anchors/screw whips are nonfatal weapons (but anchors can be used as emergency manipulators)
-heat daggers (protruding from the X1's heels) can't be used unless in a jumping kick which leaves MS open
-beam shield/brand marker can't be used (being in the forearms).
-beam sabers are not Zeta-style beam cannons despite appearing to be one

I doubt a regular pilot can bring out the full potential of these weapons as Kincaid/Tobia did. But fixed weapons is better than no weapons at all, I guess.

[nacho-wan]

mounted weapons are fixed armaments or whatever you what to call them: the grenade launchers in the zeta gundam arms, the skirt missiles in the RGZ, the beam cannon in the FA-78-3 the mega particle cannon in the Sazabi.