Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

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Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Created Holy British Empire anthropomorphic fighting machines, known as "Royal Armor(Panzer) Infantry", brilliantly showed itself in the conquest of Japan in 2010.

A new class of combat vehicles showed high cross-country ability and maneuverability, combined with an easily interchangeable by a complex variety of weapons, and the presence of receptable manipulators and accessories has made them truly universal.

http://geass.jp/akito/img/kmf_Glasgow.jpg
RPI-11 Glasgow - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/geass-tv/rpi-11.htm

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0805052236
RPI-13 Sutherland - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/geass-tv/rpi-13.htm

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0508001305
RPI-209 Gloucester - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/gea ... pi-209.htm

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Neighbours the British appreciated the new mecha and tried to create their counterparts. Although it would be much easier not to reinvent the wheel and develop their combat vehicles based on existing drawings and samples "Glasgow". However, and the Europeans and the Chinese are in the process of developing seriously departed from the concept of anthropomorphism...The reason for this was the concept: focus on ranged combat to the detriment of middle Europeans, and numerical superiority at the expense of quality Chinese

Eurupean KMF

Gardmare - http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0704023035

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0601194414
Mk3-E2E8 Panzer Hummel - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/gea ... 3-e2e8.htm

Chinese KMF
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0812144644
TQ-19 Gun-Ru - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/geass-tv/tq-19.htm

However, in 2017, Europe and China suddenly got really humanoid fighting machines on characteristics not inferior to the best British models:

Chinese
http://pds7.egloos.com/pds/200805/05/21 ... e11ead.jpg
XT-404 Shen-Hu - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/geass-r2/xt-404.htm
(created in multiple instances)

Europe
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0114031833
W0X Alexander Type-01 - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/akito/w0x.htm
(this mecha was produced in small numbers)

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Of particular note in force in Japan's "order of the Black Knights", which is widely used Japanese modification of "Glasgow" called "Burai", and the same TC who managed not only to put a pre-war machine superior to almost all the main models of the Britons, but also to establish mass production is very promising ordinary units.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 1203042422
Type-10R Burai - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/gea ... pe-10r.htm

http://cg-anime.ucoz.ru/Razdnoe/mecha_09.jpeg
Type-02 Guren Mk-II - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/gea ... ype-02.htm

http://dmimg.5054399.com/allimg/xyytuku/120216/008.jpg
Type-3F Gekka - http://www.mahq.net/mecha/codegeass/gea ... ype-3f.htm
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Now the actual question is: "Why the opponents of Britain dramatically changed the approach to the design of mecha in favor of anthropomorphism?" and "How they managed to create so advanced war machines from scratch?"
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:Now the actual question is: "Why the opponents of Britain dramatically changed the approach to the design of mecha in favor of anthropomorphism?"
Because that's what Britannia was having so much success on the battlefield with.

(Yes, the answer really is THAT simple. With Britannia favoring high mobility and close quarters combat over slow-moving heavy artillery, the only way to not die was to change tactics to use a higher-mobility humanoid design.)


-Mit- wrote:and "How they managed to create so advanced war machines from scratch?"
Simply put... they didn't.

The European Union and Chinese Federation had their own rudimentary, artillery-type Knightmare Frames like the Gun-Ru or Panzer Hummell, but even those were drawing inspiration from designs Britannia had already fielded like the Glasgow. The Knightmare Frame "arms race" really started once Britannian Knightmare Frame technology ended up in the hands of anti-Britannian forces like Kyoto and the Chinese Federation, who produced knockoff versions of the Glasgow and followed it with their own, more advanced developments.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

In case on Shen-Hu, it isn't even Chinese design. The thing was bought from India.

Now, they do study the thing and made cheaper version of it.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Kuruni wrote:In case on Shen-Hu, it isn't even Chinese design. The thing was bought from India.
Well... technically that's a gray area, since the "Militarized Zone of India" was a Chinese Federation subject-state until the Chinese Federation's dissolution and the reorganization of its member states into the United Federation of Nations.

India seems to have been a major part of the Chinese Federation's defense industry, and is said to have been using the profits from arms sales to anti-Imperialist groups to begin its own buildup for independence from China. Through their alliance with Kyoto, they were able to study the Glasgow (and possibly other Britannian knightmares) to improve their own designs.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Seto Kaiba wrote:...With Britannia favoring high mobility and close quarters combat over slow-moving heavy artillery, the only way to not die was to change tactics to use a higher-mobility humanoid design.)
Well, the fact that the design is "Glasgow" turned out to be extremely successful should have become clear after the conquest of Japan, but...Europe and China not to copy "Glasgow", and began to create bipedal artillery platform (it is easier to upgrade tanks)...

Seto Kaiba wrote:...The European Union and Chinese Federation had their own rudimentary, artillery-type Knightmare Frames like the Gun-Ru or Panzer Hummell, but even those were drawing inspiration from designs Britannia had already fielded like the Glasgow. The Knightmare Frame "arms race" really started once Britannian Knightmare Frame technology ended up in the hands of anti-Britannian forces like Kyoto and the Chinese Federation, who produced knockoff versions of the Glasgow and followed it with their own, more advanced developments.

The problem is that between "Panzer Hummell" and "Alexander" there is no intermediate links, the Europeans immediately created war machines equal to the best British samples and ran them in series, albeit small(while the Britannia barely had time to finish testing "Lancelot") ... similar to the development of military equipment is just not true
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Kuruni wrote:In case on Shen-Hu, it isn't even Chinese design. The thing was bought from India.
Now, they do study the thing and made cheaper version of it.

Honestly, I don't understand the meaning of creating such "serial" combat vehicles. I mean, its characteristics are still too high for the average pilot, it is generally not equipped with long ranged weapons, and so on...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, the British story of the launch of the production version of the "Lancelot" was not better:

1) Z-01had a number of advanced developments and features of the design, which made him invincible - two forearm-mounted energy shields (Blaze Luminous), VARIS particle rifle (Variable Ammunition Repulsion Impact Spitfire), four Slash Harkens have experimental thrusters, Maser Vibration Swords (MVS)

2) RPI-212 Vincent - Blaze Luminous was replaced Needle Blazer, he lost two Slash Harkens and VARIS rifle, but got third "eye" and second set of Landspinners in its shoulders...at least MVS remained with him. In fact, the "pre-production" model has lost a major defensive and offensive power.

3) RPI-212B Vincent Ward - not counting on MVS, two Factspheres and one "eye", it's essentially the same "Sutherland" with fashionable design...

The final serial military machine has not been used by ANY ONE promising development was used on the prototypes...

So what was the point?
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:Well, the fact that the design is "Glasgow" turned out to be extremely successful should have become clear after the conquest of Japan, but...Europe and China not to copy "Glasgow", and began to create bipedal artillery platform (it is easier to upgrade tanks)...
True... the European Union and Chinese Federation had their own view of how to best apply the tactical advantages of the Knightmare Frame concept. Their approach emphasized artillery and mobility over close combat capability, and by all accounts the Panzer-Hummel and Gun-Ru were exceptionally effective against Britannia's 4th and 5th Generation Knightmare Frames. They had the Britannian army at bay in Europe until the Knights of the Round intervened.

It was when Britannia's 7th Generation Knightmare Frames were introduced on a trial basis that tactics changed to cope with Britannia's advances.


-Mit- wrote:The problem is that between "Panzer Hummell" and "Alexander" there is no intermediate links, the Europeans immediately created war machines equal to the best British samples and ran them in series, albeit small(while the Britannia barely had time to finish testing "Lancelot") ... similar to the development of military equipment is just not true
The Alexander is a special case, the product of non-traditional development... so it's not clear where exactly it fits into the development history of the Knightmare Frame. We don't know what generation it technically belongs to.


-Mit- wrote:The final serial military machine has not been used by ANY ONE promising development was used on the prototypes...

So what was the point?
Optimization for mass production takes a while... the Britannian Army had replaced the Glasgow with the Sutherland at the start of the first season, and then swiftly replaced those with a more close combat-friendly model (the Gloucester). After that, we start seeing economized versions of the prototype machines... the trial-production Vincent, and the mass-production Vincent Ward and Gareth, which adopted numerous advances present in the prototypes.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Seto Kaiba wrote:True... the European Union and Chinese Federation had their own view of how to best apply the tactical advantages of the Knightmare Frame concept. Their approach emphasized artillery and mobility over close combat capability, and by all accounts the Panzer-Hummel and Gun-Ru were exceptionally effective against Britannia's 4th and 5th Generation Knightmare Frames. They had the Britannian army at bay in Europe until the Knights of the Round intervened.
I doubt...In the first season the squad Princess Cornelia is quite easily destroyed rocket artillery "Besides" (http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Bamides), the second "Panzer Hummel" the attacks on prepared positions and not in an open area (in one of the first series included scenes from Europe at a town surrounded by British robots and fields scattered with the debris of the European war machines)...so about any effectiveness it is difficult to say

Seto Kaiba wrote:The Alexander is a special case, the product of non-traditional development... so it's not clear where exactly it fits into the development history of the Knightmare Frame. We don't know what generation it technically belongs to.
Seto Kaiba wrote:It was when Britannia's 7th Generation Knightmare Frames were introduced on a trial basis that tactics changed to cope with Britannia's advances.
As the "Shen Hu" in general...and both models come in small series...that's just their developers had to do more work, re-creating humanoid structure...so would it not be easier from the start to use the British concept?

Its success speaks to the fact that a new generation of serial combat vehicles of China and its allies, that is "Geкка" and "Akatsuki", anthropomorphic

And if you look through the Reflection of the OZ", the situation with the European мecha is even sadder: anti-British resistance in Spain uses modernized "Sutherland"(!) and the prototype based on the "Akatsuki"...no "Panzer Hummel's" or the robot on its base is not seen...

Estrella - http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Estrella

Amanecer - http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Amanecer

Seto Kaiba wrote:Optimization for mass production takes a while... the Britannian Army had replaced the Glasgow with the Sutherland at the start of the first season, and then swiftly replaced those with a more close combat-friendly model (the Gloucester). After that, we start seeing economized versions of the prototype machines... the trial-production Vincent, and the mass-production Vincent Ward and Gareth, which adopted numerous advances present in the prototypes.
1)"Gareth" has built-in hadron cannon + missile and the flight module (although the design differs greatly from the main line of the British Meca), but he is not able to make melee attacks - some sort of attempt to create an "artillery" support robot on the "Gawain" base(in my opinion, this role would better fit "Zetland"), but it's still a completely new machine;
http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Gareth

2)the "ward" from the Arsenal predecessors has only(!) MVS...in fact, it is just simply elegant version of the same "Sutherland" - http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Vincent_Ward

"Optimization for mass production" - there is clearly not a good definition
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

I've seen a lot of good points made all around here. But I also wonder whether internal politics may also explain it. Basically my two cents on why some bad decisions were made; if they were made that is (since that still being debated here)[.

It's not really unusual for an organization or a government to make a decision and then backtrack on it. My country for example has swung back and forth on the policy on English being main language for our education system for the better part of twenty years (keep in mind they implemented these, it wasn't just something they "wanted" to do) and it's not even a different party controlling the government - it's the same one.

A lot of decisions made by an organization are inefficient in general especially in hindsight. It's not even necessrily a single decision made by higher up but rather a lot of different factors from low, mid and high level managers/decisions makers that determine. This is especially true once we take into account that a lot of different people in the organization hierarchy may have specific personally interests that run contrary to what is the best interests for the larger organization as a whole.

This is a strange example to use but the Atari 5200 video game console (successor to the Atari 2600) was a good example. It was a product that was to some extent sabotaged by Atari's own marketing department at the time. This is because a lot of the people working there had their compensation packages tied in to 2600 sales but not to the 5200 (I can't remember why or the full story but this info still stuck to me). As a result, a lot of people that worked on that department didn't put the effort to champion the new system that was released because they would be cannabalized the old system that tied in to their compensation packages. Despite the fact that the 5200 was important to the company as a whole as a successor console, some internal groups sabotaged it because it didn't allign with their personal interests. I'm not saying this is the only reason that product didn't do too well but I'm sure having some groups in the company fight you may prevent some good decisions from being made. Getting everyone in the organization on the same picture can be one of the bigger hurdles in organizational behavior.

I think in real life it's easy to look back at old decisions hindsight and say that an action should have been done and it's an obvious one but the real world is complicated enough that any initiatives may look like a good move and the answer would not be known until later.

It's one of the reasons why a lot of policies fail because they can look good on paper when they proposed before failing terribly in reality. Add that to different interests in an organization and it can prevent some good decisions from being made.

It also doesn't mean that Brittania doesn't have these sort of stuff either since they can exist in pretty much any large organization but it's possible that on a micro level they managed it better than either the EU or the Chinese Federation.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:I doubt...In the first season the squad Princess Cornelia is quite easily destroyed rocket artillery [...]
Yes, and that really doesn't change... the Britannian Knightmare Frames rely almost exclusively upon their speed and agility for defense until the introduction of the Blaze Luminous shields that were first deployed on the Lancelot. The European Union KMFs rely on out-ranging the enemy's weapons, and excel at holding defensive lines the way they did against the Britannians until the Knights of the Round and their 7th Generation KMFs tipped the balance in Britannia's favor.


-Mit- wrote:As the "Shen Hu" in general...and both models come in small series...that's just their developers had to do more work, re-creating humanoid structure...so would it not be easier from the start to use the British concept?
Easier, perhaps... but in some cases the developers (mostly in India) were working with different technologies that occasionally offered noteworthy advantages over Britannian technology, or they were building to different strategic goals. In most cases, they kept the advantageous aspects of enemy designs (like modular limbs, slash harkens, and landspinners) and built around their own technological advances. The Knightmares developed in India boasted decentralized sensors that replaced the vulnerable factsphere sensors used by Britannian knightmares, for instance.


-Mit- wrote:And if you look through the Reflection of the OZ", the situation with the European мecha is even sadder: anti-British resistance in Spain uses modernized "Sutherland"(!) and the prototype based on the "Akatsuki"...no "Panzer Hummel's" or the robot on its base is not seen...
Resistance movements have to use what's available... and suppliers like the Militarized District of India, Kyoto, or Peace Mark have an acknowledged habit of giving the best weapons to larger and more organized resistance groups who have a proven track record of success. The Black Knights had to make do with stolen or captured Glasgows and Sutherlands until the leadership of the Six Houses of Kyoto was convinced they were worth backing.

Peace Mark's forces in Spain probably had an easier time getting secondhand Britannian gear in light of the fact that one of its backers was a Britannian nobleman whose family handles secret military operations for the Empire.


-Mit- wrote:1)"Gareth" has built-in hadron cannon + missile and the flight module (although the design differs greatly from the main line of the British Meca), but he is not able to make melee attacks - some sort of attempt to create an "artillery" support robot on the "Gawain" base(in my opinion, this role would better fit "Zetland"), but it's still a completely new machine;
http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Gareth
It's not a completely new machine, it's a simplified mass-production version of the Gawain.


-Mit- wrote:2)the "ward" from the Arsenal predecessors has only(!) MVS...in fact, it is just simply elegant version of the same "Sutherland" -
Same story... the Vincent Ward is a mass-production version of the Vincent which was simplified for economical mass-production.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Seto Kaiba wrote:
-Mit- wrote:1)"Gareth" has built-in hadron cannon + missile and the flight module (although the design differs greatly from the main line of the British Meca), but he is not able to make melee attacks - some sort of attempt to create an "artillery" support robot on the "Gawain" base(in my opinion, this role would better fit "Zetland"), but it's still a completely new machine;
http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Gareth
It's not a completely new machine, it's a simplified mass-production version of the Gawain.
It also has another more well-round (but not as cheap) protoype, Agravain. In Reflection of Oz, when the Glindas first encounter Agravain, it doesn't appear in their database, but Schneizel recognize it when he see the report.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Kuruni wrote:It also has another more well-round (but not as cheap) protoype, Agravain. In Reflection of Oz, when the Glindas first encounter Agravain, it doesn't appear in their database, but Schneizel recognize it when he see the report.
True...If you take the "Agravain", "family" resemblance is obvious - "seriality" led to the loss of "Gareth" melee abilities, becoming the "artillery" of the machine.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0910120619
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0813195215

Gareth - http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Gareth

I would venture to suggest that they were suggested to use in conjunction with the "Wards". In this case, "adaptation" has the meaning.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Seto Kaiba wrote:Yes, and that really doesn't change... the Britannian Knightmare Frames rely almost exclusively upon their speed and agility for defense until the introduction of the Blaze Luminous shields that were first deployed on the Lancelot. The European Union KMFs rely on out-ranging the enemy's weapons, and excel at holding defensive lines the way they did against the Britannians until the Knights of the Round and their 7th Generation KMFs tipped the balance in Britannia's favor.
Well, British Mecha can use different weapons and to replace them when maintenance is required...

the Angles of attack and the degree of freedom in the "Britons", visually, above...

Plus, they are "in hand" can reload the exhaustion of ammunition...

And most importantly, their design has already proven its effectiveness in battle
Seto Kaiba wrote:Easier, perhaps... but in some cases the developers (mostly in India) were working with different technologies that occasionally offered noteworthy advantages over Britannian technology, or they were building to different strategic goals. In most cases, they kept the advantageous aspects of enemy designs (like modular limbs, slash harkens, and landspinners) and built around their own technological advances. The Knightmares developed in India boasted decentralized sensors that replaced the vulnerable factsphere sensors used by Britannian knightmares, for instance.
Here are just Indian "Red Lotus" and "akatsuki" and "Shen Hu" anthropomorphic, which is not Chinese or European military vehicles - clearly another design school...

That's why in the case of "Alexander" the situation looks at least strange - it looks like something alien troops in Europe

Seto Kaiba wrote:Resistance movements have to use what's available... and suppliers like the Militarized District of India, Kyoto, or Peace Mark have an acknowledged habit of giving the best weapons to larger and more organized resistance groups who have a proven track record of success. The Black Knights had to make do with stolen or captured Glasgows and Sutherlands until the leadership of the Six Houses of Kyoto was convinced they were worth backing.

Peace Mark's forces in Spain probably had an easier time getting secondhand Britannian gear in light of the fact that one of its backers was a Britannian nobleman whose family handles secret military operations for the Empire.
However, in the case of "Burаi" we have to be independent, albeit small, production-based "Glasgow" old British war machine is already removed from service, organized by the richest families of the "Zone 11" - that I can believe

But in the case of "Estrella" we're talking about a mecha based on basic British robot that you can't just steal from the warehouse (try to secretly sell "Abrams" with a military base in Afghanistan), and references about the organization is able to establish its production in "OZ" not - so where did they come from?

According to the logic, the "Star of Madrid" it was easier to use modernized European Mecha collected from the wreckage and spare parts

P.S. On the other hand, it proves the superiority of British mashines
Seto Kaiba wrote:Same story... the Vincent Ward is a mass-production version of the Vincent which was simplified for economical mass-production.
From "Vincent" there are only swords and design, otherwise, it's the same "Sutherland"
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:Here are just Indian "Red Lotus" and "akatsuki" and "Shen Hu" anthropomorphic, which is not Chinese or European military vehicles - clearly another design school...
Shen-Hu and Guren were independent designs and the Akatsuki is to the Guren as the Vincent Ward is to the original Lancelot, pretty much. I'm not sure what your point is, different design styles exist and not everybody is going to move in lockstep.
However, in the case of "Burаi" we have to be independent, albeit small, production-based "Glasgow" old British war machine is already removed from service, organized by the richest families of the "Zone 11" - that I can believe

But in the case of "Estrella" we're talking about a mecha based on basic British robot that you can't just steal from the warehouse (try to secretly sell "Abrams" with a military base in Afghanistan), and references about the organization is able to establish its production in "OZ" not - so where did they come from?
Just because the Sutherland was still in active service doesn't mean that a resistance group can't sometimes get ahold of the things and modify them. You know, like when Lelouch arranges for the ill-fated attack on Cornelia early in the first season and gets some Sutherlands to do it with.
According to the logic, the "Star of Madrid" it was easier to use modernized European Mecha collected from the wreckage and spare parts
Sure, but if you can get your hands on a proven design like the Sutherland and make it your own, why wouldn't you?
From "Vincent" there are only swords and design, otherwise, it's the same "Sutherland"
Is there some reason that you can't grasp that a machine that lacks all the bells and whistles of a super prototype and resembles an older design in its final weapons loadout could still be a more powerful machine than the design it's replacing? Because it really doesn't matter that the Vincent Ward lacks the full features of the Lancelot and the original Vincent, it's still superior to the Sutherland and the whole point of the process was to take the ridiculously expensive and complicated Lancelot (which was basically made by Lloyd cramming every bit of ultratech he could into a single frame) and making it 1) economical for mass production and 2) something the average pilot to operate.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Arsarcana wrote:Shen-Hu and Guren were independent designs and the Akatsuki is to the Guren as the Vincent Ward is to the original Lancelot, pretty much. I'm not sure what your point is, different design styles exist and not everybody is going to move in lockstep.
Rather, the basis construction has taken "Guren MK 1", and on the basis of his data has developed a pre-production version of "Gekka" , and on its basis launched the serial and command "Akatsuki"...in which, also, was used developments on weapons "Guren MK 2". (It if to forget about experimental mashine from "Lost Colors")

But actually it was about that in the conquest of Japan itself brilliantly showed "Glasgow" and it is quite logical to expect that the remaining superpower will be to create their mecha, but instead, they created 7 years different kinds of "walking artillery platforms", whose effectiveness is in doubt (all these years it was the Britannia actively expanded through conquest).

Meanwhile in Japan, "Six Houses of Kyoto" has established secret and small-scale production "Burai", created on the basis of decommissioned "Glasgow" (Who better than them to know how good the enemy robots?) - the main changes concerned the armor (and thus the exterior design) and weapons, plus updated electronics - in fact some sort of alternate version of "Sutherland". In principle, given the financial and political opportunities "Kyoto" this situation is quite acceptable...

India, in the person of Rakshata, went his own way and created a highly successful line of "Guren/Gekka(akatsuki)", and in addition and several prototypes, such as "Shen-Hu", which, owing to their...er...features...transferred to China, which the Hindus are formally subjected to. In General, if the Chinese themselves are unable to think of anything better "Gan-Ru", their "neighbors" were able to cope successfully with the task. (Interesting, by the way, a moment, because it turns out that the Chinese Federation was developing both directions)

The situation is similar in Europe - anthropomorphic "Alexander" by orders of magnitude exceeds the "Panzer"...

So if, in the end, all countries have switched to anthropomorphic fighting machines, then, presumably, their efficiency is beyond doubt...so it was worth it even to develop a national "Panzer" and "Gan-Ru", instead of simply taking military-technical experience of Britannia?

Arsarcana wrote:Just because the Sutherland was still in active service doesn't mean that a resistance group can't sometimes get ahold of the things and modify them. You know, like when Lelouch arranges for the ill-fated attack on Cornelia early in the first season and gets some Sutherlands to do it with.
If it was about a stolen and repainted "Sutherland", then the question would not be, but because we are dealing with redone models, and it is much more difficult in terms of resources and opportunities... to Steal, to hide, alter, equip... However, in contrast to "Area 11", about any patrons "Stars of Madrid" is not mentioned ("Amanecer" is a different story). It is doubtful that all

Find 10 differences...

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 1125180817

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0814055423

Arsarcana wrote:Sure, but if you can get your hands on a proven design like the Sutherland and make it your own, why wouldn't you?
Well, different language and electronic systems, other types of ammunition and the difference in the power supply, for example...plus it's humanoid design and ex-pilots "Panzer" will have to retrain...

Arsarcana wrote:Is there some reason that you can't grasp that a machine that lacks all the bells and whistles of a super prototype and resembles an older design in its final weapons loadout could still be a more powerful machine than the design it's replacing? Because it really doesn't matter that the Vincent Ward lacks the full features of the Lancelot and the original Vincent, it's still superior to the Sutherland and the whole point of the process was to take the ridiculously expensive and complicated Lancelot (which was basically made by Lloyd cramming every bit of ultratech he could into a single frame) and making it 1) economical for mass production and 2) something the average pilot to operate.
What would I say? If you take the "Agravaine and Gareth", we can clearly see that the production model lost "energy shields" and opportunities melee, BUT have preserved hadron cannons and missile set with machine guns, plus built-in "wings"...simply put, sacrificed to the protection and part of offensive power, but kept the important thing

"Ward", does not have ANYTHING from the Arsenal predecessors...Oh yeah, MVS, however, to use them can "Gloucester"...even surpassing "Sutherland" in speed and agility he has no advantages in equipment, but could be done much:

1) Bazooka could replace the hadron Blaster
2) to add the "knight" shield with built-in "Blaze Luminous System"
3) replace standard auto cannon on the production version of the "VARIS Rifle"
and so on
-Mit-
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Incidentally, the Europeans seem to realize that I did not too successful fighting machine and tried to strengthen the combat capabilities of his mecha...but went with the path of least resistance instead Refine and enhance the design, they just simply hung on him the maximum amount of armor and weapons... The result is a "Wespe Panzer"

Before - http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0818004500

and after - http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 0216030815

Anyway, in the manga "OZ" these units are unable to show any outstanding opportunities...although it was a definite advantage for long-range attacks at the enemy group (+ served as a mobile air defense) , but cost more Brits to go in for the kill...and it's all over

Hmm...Maybe European engineers would cost to build something like "XV9 Hazard"?
http://img06.deviantart.net/602b/i/2010 ... ledian.png
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Arsarcana
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:But actually it was about that in the conquest of Japan itself brilliantly showed "Glasgow" and it is quite logical to expect that the remaining superpower will be to create their mecha, but instead, they created 7 years different kinds of "walking artillery platforms", whose effectiveness is in doubt (all these years it was the Britannia actively expanded through conquest).
We've already gone over this. Just because Britannia had a design that worked well doesn't mean that every other power on the planet will immediately copy their design, especially since things like the Panze Hummel worked brilliantly at first.

I'm not sure if the rest of your post was trying to make some sort of argument or if it was a stream of consciousness experiment.
If it was about a stolen and repainted "Sutherland", then the question would not be, but because we are dealing with redone models, and it is much more difficult in terms of resources and opportunities... to Steal, to hide, alter, equip... However, in contrast to "Area 11", about any patrons "Stars of Madrid" is not mentioned ("Amanecer" is a different story). It is doubtful that all

Find 10 differences...
No thanks, I have better things to do with my time. If the Burai can exist, why do you assume we have to be spoon-fed every bit of information in order to also accept the existence of the Estrella?
"Ward", does not have ANYTHING from the Arsenal predecessors...Oh yeah, MVS, however, to use them can "Gloucester"...even surpassing "Sutherland" in speed and agility he has no advantages in equipment, but could be done much:
The Vincent Ward is presumably a lot cheaper than the Gareth and can be produced in much greater numbers (as we see happen) while still being a superior mass production machine to the Sutherland it's replacing. So once again, you're arguing over bells and whistles and missing the point of the entire exercise.
1) Bazooka could replace the hadron Blaster
2) to add the "knight" shield with built-in "Blaze Luminous System"
3) replace standard auto cannon on the production version of the "VARIS Rifle"
and so on
The former can be an optional hand weapon if the circumstances ever require it, the second and third ideas are expensive and the benefits of survivability or firepower do not obviously outweigh the increased costs involved in mass production. I mean sure, more weapons or a better defensive system are good but you can't just dictate by fiat that they must be worth the cost in a design you intend to churn out in huge numbers. Especially since the design we actually see in action seems to do rather well with just the equipment it's given.
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Dark Duel
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

-Mit- wrote:"Ward", does not have ANYTHING from the Arsenal predecessors...Oh yeah, MVS, however, to use them can "Gloucester"...even surpassing "Sutherland" in speed and agility he has no advantages in equipment, but could be done much:

1) Bazooka could replace the hadron Blaster
2) to add the "knight" shield with built-in "Blaze Luminous System"
3) replace standard auto cannon on the production version of the "VARIS Rifle"
and so on
So hang on a minute. Your logic is that, because the Ward uses the same weapons as the Sutherland, it is no better than the Sutherland as a Knightmare overall?
By that same logic, since they are identical except for cosmetic details (legs, head, shoulders) and use the same weapons, you could make the same claim about the Sutherland itself, that it is no better than the Glasgow.

Except that the series conclusively demonstrates on multiple occasions that despite their similarities, the Sutherland is in fact substantially superior to the Glasgow. Oops.

Which only serves to prove the following point: Just because it uses the same or similar weapons, doesn't mean that it's not superior. There are other factors to consider than mere weapon loadout, something which you seem to be forgetting.
In spite of the fact that you yourself pointed out - if I understood your post correctly - the fact that the Gloucester is itself superior to the Sutherland - despite using for the most part the same exact weapons, or very similar ones.
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Arsarcana wrote:We've already gone over this. Just because Britannia had a design that worked well doesn't mean that every other power on the planet will immediately copy their design, especially since things like the Panze Hummel worked brilliantly at first.

I'm not sure if the rest of your post was trying to make some sort of argument or if it was a stream of consciousness experiment.
No, just a brief summary...

Тhe only thing I'm unclear if the design of European and Chinese mecha so effective, as is commonly believed, why she had not received further development, replaced by anthropomorphic?

Arsarcana wrote:No thanks, I have better things to do with my time. If the Burai can exist, why do you assume we have to be spoon-fed every bit of information in order to also accept the existence of the Estrella?
Well, "Burai", at least, looks more probable - is written off and destroyed (on paper) military vehicles, reconstructed the richest clans of Japan (and possibly on the basis of the modernization project), and thanks to backroom deals with corrupt British administration produced small ...

I don't deny the existence "Estrella," but it raises many questions which are not clarified.

Arsarcana wrote:The Vincent Ward is presumably a lot cheaper than the Gareth and can be produced in much greater numbers (as we see happen) while still being a superior mass production machine to the Sutherland it's replacing. So once again, you're arguing over bells and whistles and missing the point of the entire exercise.
How to say - the number of "Gareth" in the last series too is very large, apparently the price difference is not too significant

Arsarcana wrote:The former can be an optional hand weapon if the circumstances ever require it, the second and third ideas are expensive and the benefits of survivability or firepower do not obviously outweigh the increased costs involved in mass production. I mean sure, more weapons or a better defensive system are good but you can't just dictate by fiat that they must be worth the cost in a design you intend to churn out in huge numbers. Especially since the design we actually see in action seems to do rather well with just the equipment it's given.
Do not argue, but then what's the point of developing all these "advanced" weapons, if you cannot run them even in small scale production?
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Re: Oddities of evolution of the KnightMare Frame

Dark Duel wrote:So hang on a minute. Your logic is that, because the Ward uses the same weapons as the Sutherland, it is no better than the Sutherland as a Knightmare overall?
In terms of weaponry, Yes, especially given the availability of prototypes like VARIS...

Dark Duel wrote:By that same logic, since they are identical except for cosmetic details (legs, head, shoulders) and use the same weapons, you could make the same claim about the Sutherland itself, that it is no better than the Glasgow. Except that the series conclusively demonstrates on multiple occasions that despite their similarities, the Sutherland is in fact substantially superior to the Glasgow. Oops.
Small note - in addition to speed and maneuverability, electronics and security systems "Sutherland" exceeds the "Glasgow" and in the weaponry aimed at melee, spears, batons, stun guns, axes and halberds...it Explained by the appearance of the "Knight's Horses" of potential opponents, and related counter-measures.

The armament of the "Ward" is simply not consistent with the existing protection systems and the attacking potential perceived opponents

Dark Duel wrote:Which only serves to prove the following point: Just because it uses the same or similar weapons, doesn't mean that it's not superior. There are other factors to consider than mere weapon loadout, something which you seem to be forgetting.
In spite of the fact that you yourself pointed out - if I understood your post correctly - the fact that the Gloucester is itself superior to the Sutherland - despite using for the most part the same exact weapons, or very similar ones.
Just imagine what a modern f-22 armed rockets at the Vietnam war, under the pretext that "they fly and explode, even go somewhere, so why develop a new one?"
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