TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

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TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by WildeHopps_Shipper » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm

Click here and scroll down to "Super Prototype" to see Jehuty as among them.

Click here, click on the video game section, and scroll down to Zone of the Enders to see Jehuty listed as among the super prototypes.

Both EarlOfSandvich and DarkHunter -- two members of TV Tropes -- declared that Jehuty is a Super Prototype, even though neither MAHQ nor the Zone of the Enders wiki listed the orbital frame as a prototype. Why would anyone consider Jehuty a prototype, when it's clearly just a one-off model?

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:24 pm

WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm
Both EarlOfSandvich and DarkHunter -- two members of TV Tropes -- declared that Jehuty is a Super Prototype, even though neither MAHQ nor the Zone of the Enders wiki listed the orbital frame as a prototype. Why would anyone consider Jehuty a prototype, when it's clearly just a one-off model?
Who cares? It's frigging TV Tropes. If we went to correct every single not-completely-correct application of a trope on that site we'd all die of old age long before we were even close to finished.

Also, being a "super prototype" as the trope is defined doesn't actually require the unit in question to truly be the prototype for an intended mass-production model. It's a catch-all trope that covers a multitude of sins... including one-off or limited run experimental units with superior performance and capabilities that either are not meant for, or not suitable for, mass production; bonus points awarded for black box technology that can't be fitted to standard production mecha.

Jehuty does fall under that particularly broad banner for most of the same reasons you'll find the RX-0 Unicorn Gundam on that page. It's a powerful one-off unit that substantially outclasses pretty much every production type from its setting and sports some truly HAX design features not compatible with production types like the zero shift system. IIRC it's also got a black box system that makes it or its sister unit Anubis an activation key for a civilization-ending superweapon.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by WildeHopps_Shipper » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:54 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:24 pm
WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm
Both EarlOfSandvich and DarkHunter -- two members of TV Tropes -- declared that Jehuty is a Super Prototype, even though neither MAHQ nor the Zone of the Enders wiki listed the orbital frame as a prototype. Why would anyone consider Jehuty a prototype, when it's clearly just a one-off model?
Who cares? It's frigging TV Tropes. If we went to correct every single not-completely-correct application of a trope on that site we'd all die of old age long before we were even close to finished.

Also, being a "super prototype" as the trope is defined doesn't actually require the unit in question to truly be the prototype for an intended mass-production model. It's a catch-all trope that covers a multitude of sins... including one-off or limited run experimental units with superior performance and capabilities that either are not meant for, or not suitable for, mass production; bonus points awarded for black box technology that can't be fitted to standard production mecha.

Jehuty does fall under that particularly broad banner for most of the same reasons you'll find the RX-0 Unicorn Gundam on that page. It's a powerful one-off unit that substantially outclasses pretty much every production type from its setting and sports some truly HAX design features not compatible with production types like the zero shift system. IIRC it's also got a black box system that makes it or its sister unit Anubis an activation key for a civilization-ending superweapon.
"Experimental"?

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm

WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:54 pm
"Experimental"?
A unique test platform either purpose-built or modified from production specifications to evaluate one or more new technologies for feasibility through use on a trial basis. The test platform and/or the technology installed for testing are not necessarily intended for production and may only exist to gather test data meant to further development of the technology under test or just show off. (e.g. the US's X-series aircraft)

Quite a few entries on the TV Tropes "Super Prototype" list are experimental units rather than prototypes... like the MSN-00100 Hyaku Shiki from Zeta Gundam, the XGP-15AII from Outlaw Star, the VF-0s in Macross Zero[1], the Gawain in Code Geass, etc.




[1] Almost the entire Macross section of that list is complete bunk, given that the prototypes in Macross are realistically no better or even inferior to the production models that followed, thus failing the "super" part of "super prototype". The VF-0 on there is a genuine experimental plane in the strictest sense of the word, being that it was meant to test most every new technology going into VFs but was not itself meant for production.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by WildeHopps_Shipper » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm
WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:54 pm
"Experimental"?
A unique test platform either purpose-built or modified from production specifications to evaluate one or more new technologies for feasibility through use on a trial basis. The test platform and/or the technology installed for testing are not necessarily intended for production and may only exist to gather test data meant to further development of the technology under test or just show off. (e.g. the US's X-series aircraft)

Quite a few entries on the TV Tropes "Super Prototype" list are experimental units rather than prototypes... like the MSN-00100 Hyaku Shiki from Zeta Gundam, the XGP-15AII from Outlaw Star, the VF-0s in Macross Zero[1], the Gawain in Code Geass, etc.




[1] Almost the entire Macross section of that list is complete bunk, given that the prototypes in Macross are realistically no better or even inferior to the production models that followed, thus failing the "super" part of "super prototype". The VF-0 on there is a genuine experimental plane in the strictest sense of the word, being that it was meant to test most every new technology going into VFs but was not itself meant for production.
So essentially, they just exist to test out new technology that is unfeasible for mass production. Right?

Why test out new technology if it is unfeasible for mass production?

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:36 pm

WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm
So essentially, they just exist to test out new technology that is unfeasible for mass production. Right?
That's just the most common explanation used in mecha anime for why new technologies tested on an experimental "super prototype" aren't mass produced. Exactly why the technology is unfeasible for mass production varies, but it usually comes down to either being too expensive, too resource-intensive, or too unsafe.

Most real-world experimental platforms are built to examine whether the technology is feasible at all or to examine ways to improve the technology so it can one day be mass produced.


WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm
Why test out new technology if it is unfeasible for mass production?
To see if there are ways that it can be made feasible for mass production, or to refine the theory behind the tech (like so many experimental aircraft).
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by WildeHopps_Shipper » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:00 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:36 pm
WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm
So essentially, they just exist to test out new technology that is unfeasible for mass production. Right?
That's just the most common explanation used in mecha anime for why new technologies tested on an experimental "super prototype" aren't mass produced. Exactly why the technology is unfeasible for mass production varies, but it usually comes down to either being too expensive, too resource-intensive, or too unsafe.

Most real-world experimental platforms are built to examine whether the technology is feasible at all or to examine ways to improve the technology so it can one day be mass produced.


WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:21 pm
Why test out new technology if it is unfeasible for mass production?
To see if there are ways that it can be made feasible for mass production, or to refine the theory behind the tech (like so many experimental aircraft).
Then what are prototypes, and how do they differ from experimental units?

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:42 pm

As I understand it, a prototype is the next step in the developmental process, in the sense that it is an attempt to incorporate technologies into a unit that is suitable for mass production. If the prototype is deemed a success, then the unit enters mass production.
Often times, unlike in anime, a production-model unit will actually have further improvements over the prototype.

Let's use thrust-vectoring as an example, as in real-world, modern-day aircraft. And I'm just gonna use two more or less random examples, just to kind of make my point.

The Rockwell X-31 was an experimental aircraft, designed to test out thrust-vectoring on a fighter aircraft. It was never meant to be produced on any level or actually used beyond as a testbed.

The Lockheed YF-22 was a prototype that, among other things, incorporated a more refined version of the thrust-vectoring technology previously tested on the X-31. Unlike the X-31, the YF-22 was developed specifically with eventual mass-production in mind, culminating in the production-model F-22.

EDIT: To use an example from Gundam that, for once, actually gets it right, the YMF-01B Prototype GINN and the original/unmodified MBF-P0# Astrays would be true prototypes in that both were developed with a view towards mass production, resulting in the production-model ZGMF-1017 GINN and MBF-M1 Astray respectively.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:10 pm

A rather simple explanation will be the definition of "trope".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Trope

It's the way you use it, and super prototypes don't really have to be prototypes, they just have to be somehow different from the mass-production model and better in some sense.
Also, if you read into the actual super prototype article, the 4. point lists:
4.Lastly, the prototype may not be a prototype...
The first "prototype" in the sentence is referring to the term used in the title "Super prototype" while the latter is referring to a more conventional use of the term IRL.

So it is not "incorrect", at least in the context of the site "TV Tropes". You are just not interpretating it in context but rather literally.

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:28 pm

WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:00 pm
Then what are prototypes, and how do they differ from experimental units?
Normally, a development program progresses through four basic phases. I'm going to write this mostly real world and avoid the fiction-only scenario where a whole new platform is built to test one system.
  1. Test Stand/HiL
    The new technology is bench tested independent of any other hardware that it might have to interact with in a complex system. The part may be hooked up to a Hardware in the Loop (HiL) simulator so that its behavior as a part of an integrated system can be examined without the added variables of actually integrating it into a larger system. This phase will often continue after the project has moved on to the later phases, as a precautionary measure to suss out potential problems in integration before testing on an integrated system.
  2. Experimental
    A dedicated testbed unit is constructed by adapting an existing production unit to incorporate the new technology or, if no one production model is suitable, a custom testbed is assembled by mixing and matching production parts from multiple production units and custom fabricated parts. This testbed is used to evaluate the technology itself and how well it integrates into a larger system.

    In the auto industry, we call these experimental vehicles "mules". They're usually a modified version of a current production model car that's been retrofitted with new, custom-made parts meant for later production.
  3. Prototype
    A more developed, production-focused testbed. Most projects will inevitably involve multiple prototypes, each incorporating progressively more production-intent hardware as development progresses and suppliers begin to produce production-intent parts or prototype parts incrementally closer to production spec. Early prototypes often lack many features that the production plan calls for, and each new prototype incorporates more feature content planned for the final spec.

    (For example, a first prototype of a car might have body panels made of plastic and bondo. It might lack some hardware that isn't necessary for testing, like speakers in the cabin stereo or the carpet and back row seats may not be installed to provide freer access to cabin wiring. Some parts that are physically present may not yet have software support, like the air conditioner. Other hardware might have stripped-down features in software, like an engine shifting roughly due to missing shift calibrations. Each successive prototype gets closer to the completed design.)
  4. Low Rate Initial Production
    The final pre-production testing phase, in which several production spec units are produced by hand to validate the production line process and for final validation of the fully-integrated system. The actual testing of the full spec system is called Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL) by the military. The auto industry refers to the vehicles produced for this phase as PV (Production Verification) units.
  5. Mass Production
    Once the production process has been fully validated and signed off on, and the trial production lot has been thoroughly tested and its fitness for production has been certified, mass production begins.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Kuruni » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 am

IIRC, Jehuty's data was used to develope Vic Viper. So while isn't direct prototype, it does fit the broad definition of the trope.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by WildeHopps_Shipper » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:28 pm
WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:00 pm
Then what are prototypes, and how do they differ from experimental units?
Normally, a development program progresses through four basic phases. I'm going to write this mostly real world and avoid the fiction-only scenario where a whole new platform is built to test one system.
  1. Test Stand/HiL
    The new technology is bench tested independent of any other hardware that it might have to interact with in a complex system. The part may be hooked up to a Hardware in the Loop (HiL) simulator so that its behavior as a part of an integrated system can be examined without the added variables of actually integrating it into a larger system. This phase will often continue after the project has moved on to the later phases, as a precautionary measure to suss out potential problems in integration before testing on an integrated system.
  2. Experimental
    A dedicated testbed unit is constructed by adapting an existing production unit to incorporate the new technology or, if no one production model is suitable, a custom testbed is assembled by mixing and matching production parts from multiple production units and custom fabricated parts. This testbed is used to evaluate the technology itself and how well it integrates into a larger system.

    In the auto industry, we call these experimental vehicles "mules". They're usually a modified version of a current production model car that's been retrofitted with new, custom-made parts meant for later production.
  3. Prototype
    A more developed, production-focused testbed. Most projects will inevitably involve multiple prototypes, each incorporating progressively more production-intent hardware as development progresses and suppliers begin to produce production-intent parts or prototype parts incrementally closer to production spec. Early prototypes often lack many features that the production plan calls for, and each new prototype incorporates more feature content planned for the final spec.

    (For example, a first prototype of a car might have body panels made of plastic and bondo. It might lack some hardware that isn't necessary for testing, like speakers in the cabin stereo or the carpet and back row seats may not be installed to provide freer access to cabin wiring. Some parts that are physically present may not yet have software support, like the air conditioner. Other hardware might have stripped-down features in software, like an engine shifting roughly due to missing shift calibrations. Each successive prototype gets closer to the completed design.)
  4. Low Rate Initial Production
    The final pre-production testing phase, in which several production spec units are produced by hand to validate the production line process and for final validation of the fully-integrated system. The actual testing of the full spec system is called Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL) by the military. The auto industry refers to the vehicles produced for this phase as PV (Production Verification) units.
  5. Mass Production
    Once the production process has been fully validated and signed off on, and the trial production lot has been thoroughly tested and its fitness for production has been certified, mass production begins.
And Jehuty is just one example of not a prototype, but rather an experimental unit. Right?

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:45 pm

WildeHopps_Shipper wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 am
And Jehuty is just one example of not a prototype, but rather an experimental unit. Right?
Jehuty is one of those cases that only occurs in works of fiction... it's a bank-breakingly expensive, super-high performance, battle-ready, one-of-a-kind experimental unit that was entirely scratch-built to protect a black box system.

As is so often the case when mecha anime indulges that particularly unrealistic scenario, the effort that went into building an uber-powerful mecha to protect the black box system is invariably justified by the incredible, figuratively (or sometimes literally) Earth-shattering ramifications of the black box system's function. Jehuty and its sister frame Anubis had the Aumaan Project's black box that was an activation key for a super-weapon with the potential to destroy the solar system. The RX-0 Unicorn Gundam's black box was the La+ system, an elaborate access key to Laplace's Box and the political secret within that could bring the Earth Federation to its knees if not to ruin. The titular ship in Outlaw Star (XGP15A-II) had a walking, talking black box for the crew to protect, a bio-android access key to the apparently all-powerful wish fulfillment machine called the Galactic Ley Line. The G-Self in Reconguista in G had a much more benign version that was meant only to locate and protect the Rayhunton heirs and safely return them to Cyrano-5 so they could prevent the reconquista. The first Knight of Gold (AKA Destiny Mirage) in Five Star Stories was a sapient black box disguised as a weapon of war, meant to protect and safely deliver Kallen, the child of Amaterasu and his wife Lachesis, to the Taika universe for reasons that sound suspiciously messianic. Etc. Etc.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:24 am

Well, what we see in media is more inclining towards the ideally completed prototype.
Ideal as in the Engineer's terms, where you have (almost) no limit to your budget and resources, and you can ignore if it can be mass-produced or not (the plan WAS to mass-produce your design, or IS, when you are still making the prototype. It is only later in the plot that realism is thrown into the plot that deems your design too expensive) And after all the testing, redesign, modification, your prototype is at its final stage where it is already fully operational, and you still need to TEST it before full production begins.
THEN it got stolen by the idiots and the higher-ups now started to look at things with realism.

IRL, no one will let you work like that, you are lucky to even have the actual money to build a prototype, seriously, the business/administration people don't know much about designing, they assume you work some magic and the cheap and workable product can be stamped out like cookies.
If you are working in bigger companies/government projects(that are not outsourced), they usually have some people in between that will translate for you so the higher-ups will let you have a minimum sum to work with.(which is reasonable so you don't bankrupt the organization) For smaller organizations, you are usually just picking up junk and resembling them for the early testings. Since these parts are not build for this design, they may be stronger or weaker than your needs(parts are custom made, so you can get lazy and cut less of the material off so the cross-section area is larger than the design), so if you get really lucky, you may end up with a prototype more durable than the final product. Of course smaller organizations are usually not working in large projects so things are not that complicated and off the shelf parts are likely to still be able to do rather good testing.

Things are changing rapidly though. Since our technology is advancing so quickly, rapid prototyping with 3D printing isn't too far fetched, and electronics aren't prohibitively expensive anymore, so a scratch build prototype won't be too unrealistic for smaller products. However, the prototype will almost always be weaker than the final product if using these methods since the material and methods used are usually worse.(no point in using expensive material in this stage)

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by v_zubko » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:23 am

Real life does get surprising close to fictional prototypes if commissioned submarines can count as prototypes as in Project 661 "Anchar" Papa class to Project 705 "Lira" Alfa Class, as the former was too expensive and too fast for its own good.
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:21 am

v_zubko wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:23 am
Real life does get surprising close to fictional prototypes if commissioned submarines can count as prototypes as in Project 661 "Anchar" Papa class to Project 705 "Lira" Alfa Class, as the former was too expensive and too fast for its own good.
One of a very close examples I can think of is the Type Zero Fighter A6M.
The original prototype would be more powerful than at least some of the production models.
Not because they changed the designs, but because their production is so bad(quite a lot of them are built in high schools by high school girls, think about that)
They somehow had German made Maus 20mm autocannon on the prototype, but had Japanese produced ones on the production models, which sucked and jams a LOT.
Holes are drilled into the frame to lighten up the weight in order to increase the performance, which wasn't done to the prototype, so you get some kind of better spec on the production models but their structural strength is weaker so they will break apart in a dive.(which is common in WWII fighters tactics since that increases the attack speed)
Numerous faults and malfunctions happens in the production models that will not happen on the prototype.

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:54 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:24 am
Well, what we see in media is more inclining towards the ideally completed prototype.
Ideal as in the Engineer's terms, where you have (almost) no limit to your budget and resources, and you can ignore if it can be mass-produced or not (the plan WAS to mass-produce your design, or IS, when you are still making the prototype.
Speaking as an engineer whose day job is the design, development, and testing of experimental and prototype vehicles for a major multinational automaker, I feel compelled to say that the only part of what you just said that ISN'T the polar opposite of an engineer's ideal prototype development scenario is the part about unlimited budget and resources.

The kind of development environment commonly seen for "super prototypes" is the sort of thing that would have most halfway-sane test engineers calling mental health services on the supervisor who proposed it. Having to design, build, and test a scratch-built, completely unproven, complex integrated system containing multiple non-production systems that are either incomplete, immature, or potentially unstable is an engineer's NIGHTMARE. The last thing you want for prototype testing is unnecessary variables in play while you're evaluating a new system... and something like what the creators of Gundam keep doing is a scenario that'd introduce uncountably vast numbers of variables into testing. That's why in the real world, prototypes almost invariably use as many off-the-shelf, proven, production-level parts as possible and are stripped-down as far as possible to eliminate anything that isn't absolutely necessary for testing.

Tem Ray didn't suffer brain damage... he probably went mad from how poorly planned Project V was, with some nutter opting to throw an untested full-integration prototype full of scratch-built hardware into live combat on an equally prototype ship alongside other equally untested prototypes. (EFSF won the One Year War more by luck than good judgement.)


MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:24 am
THEN it got stolen by the idiots and the higher-ups now started to look at things with realism.
That's probably the most unrealistic part. What kind of moron doesn't equip their prototype with anti-theft measures?


MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:24 am
IRL, no one will let you work like that, you are lucky to even have the actual money to build a prototype, seriously, the business/administration people don't know much about designing, they assume you work some magic and the cheap and workable product can be stamped out like cookies.
That ain't accurate either. Timelines can be more than slightly unrealistic, but any halfway competent administrator in a development environment knows that you do things as in steps as small as possible. Most automobiles have at least 4 mule/prototype specifications to which dozens if not hundreds of test articles are built and upgraded and tested to and beyond the point of destruction before the general public is ever allowed to clap eyes on the thing.

Many of the ones I know well and work with on a daily basis know not to even ASK to see or test drive a project vehicle until the second or third prototype and a level of completion at least halfway to production standard.



The closest I've actually seen to realism in the development process of a prototype in mecha anime is a draw between Macross and Full Metal Panic!.

In Macross, the development of the first Variable Fighter had two full experimental design phases built off of the existing F-14 Tomcat before they ever even attempted to integrate a partial transformation system. The actual VF-0s seen in Macross Zero's OVA are the fifth or sixth prototype phase, and the first one to actually approach something like a fully-functional prototype. There were three further concurrent prototype phases before they actually completed their first production intent variable fighter, the VF-1 Valkyrie.

Full Metal Panic! had the Transfer And Response Omni-Sphere and Lambda Driver systems initially mounted and tested in two production spec AS's (a M6 Bushnell and M9D Falke) before they were ever installed in the experimental ARX-7 Arbalest... and the Arbalest itself was a prototype built almost entirely from production spec M9E Gernsback components.

(The closest I've ever seen Gundam come is Tyrant Sword of Neofalia, where the Nemo and GM II were rival designs and the Nemo spent several more years in development before entering production.)
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by yazi88 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:26 pm

I would like to add that the Origin showed the earlier prototype and testing phases of Zeon's 1st mobile suits from the worker units to the Bugu that lead to the Zaku I and Zaku II. Of course this is part of the Origin timeline that takes its own liberties in trying to modernize some things like the Guncannon and Guntank being older units, especially the Guntank which is the 1st mobile suit in Origin timeline.

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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:59 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:26 pm
I would like to add that the Origin showed the earlier prototype and testing phases of Zeon's 1st mobile suits from the worker units to the Bugu that lead to the Zaku I and Zaku II. Of course this is part of the Origin timeline that takes its own liberties in trying to modernize some things like the Guncannon and Guntank being older units, especially the Guntank which is the 1st mobile suit in Origin timeline.
Alternate development histories for the Zaku series also showed up in MS Igloo: Apocalypse 0079 and that one Developers manga, IIRC.

The manga was quite interesting for showing that Zeon had not only pursued a Minovsky reactor-powered MS, but also other avenues like batteries... and with four different competing prototype specifications of the EMS/YMS-05 Zaku I. I do wish MS Igloo had given us more to go on WRT the design competition between the EMS-04 Zudah and EMS-05 Zaku.
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MythSearcher
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Re: TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:57 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:54 pm
Speaking as an engineer whose day job is the design, development, and testing of experimental and prototype vehicles for a major multinational automaker, I feel compelled to say that the only part of what you just said that ISN'T the polar opposite of an engineer's ideal prototype development scenario is the part about unlimited budget and resources.

The kind of development environment commonly seen for "super prototypes" is the sort of thing that would have most halfway-sane test engineers calling mental health services on the supervisor who proposed it. Having to design, build, and test a scratch-built, completely unproven, complex integrated system containing multiple non-production systems that are either incomplete, immature, or potentially unstable is an engineer's NIGHTMARE. The last thing you want for prototype testing is unnecessary variables in play while you're evaluating a new system... and something like what the creators of Gundam keep doing is a scenario that'd introduce uncountably vast numbers of variables into testing. That's why in the real world, prototypes almost invariably use as many off-the-shelf, proven, production-level parts as possible and are stripped-down as far as possible to eliminate anything that isn't absolutely necessary for testing.

Tem Ray didn't suffer brain damage... he probably went mad from how poorly planned Project V was, with some nutter opting to throw an untested full-integration prototype full of scratch-built hardware into live combat on an equally prototype ship alongside other equally untested prototypes. (EFSF won the One Year War more by luck than good judgement.)
You probably misunderstood what I said.

I didn't say the prototype is the first to come out, I am saying you got all your time, budget and resources to do all the testing you want and the working and curb-stomping unit which you call a "prototype" is at its final stage of production and thus you are not working on multiple systems that are not tested.
That's probably the most unrealistic part. What kind of moron doesn't equip their prototype with anti-theft measures?
In the military, the security measure isn't in the unit itself, but the surrounding facility, likely a full protected military base.

Also, IRL, the prototype won't be able to move without actual maintainence and refuelling, you'd be lucky to be able to sit inside and just drive it away like you own car.
Look at all those crew members that are required to even get the fighter on the runway?

That ain't accurate either. Timelines can be more than slightly unrealistic, but any halfway competent administrator in a development environment knows that you do things as in steps as small as possible. Most automobiles have at least 4 mule/prototype specifications to which dozens if not hundreds of test articles are built and upgraded and tested to and beyond the point of destruction before the general public is ever allowed to clap eyes on the thing.

Many of the ones I know well and work with on a daily basis know not to even ASK to see or test drive a project vehicle until the second or third prototype and a level of completion at least halfway to production standard.
You are talking about the larger organizations.
You are rather lucky that you didn't work with smaller ones in that case.
But like I said, usually the smaller organizations are working on much less complex things so some times you can work with just computer similations and maybe a modified off-the-shelf product as a prototype.
(The closest I've ever seen Gundam come is Tyrant Sword of Neofalia, where the Nemo and GM II were rival designs and the Nemo spent several more years in development before entering production.)
The Zeta Gundam is kinda realistic to have 4 prototypes (the MSZ-006Proto, MSZ-006X1~3) and considering the new technologies, it does have testing grounds as the Hyakushiki. The Zeta went into limited production, then improved as the Z Plus series, and the RGZ-91 ReGZ has a Zeta plus R as its prototype testing.

The GM II also has quite a lot of testing in AOZ, you get the CR and SR before the production of GM II.

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