General Fan Fiction Discussion

[Heretic]

Okay, topic for discussion. Are there ANY happy characters in gundam Fan Fiction? I mean sure one of the major themes in gundam is the sorrow of war, but is there anyone in gundam who is genuinely happy with their life? Not counting mentally broken psychopathic killing machines, megalomaniac despots or delusional heroes with a massive disconnect from reality, (looking at you Kira Yamato and company…)

What brought this on is that I’m reading through Shadowcell’s fan fic, --and constantly being distracted by my own-- and I’ve noticed in some ways his seems to have this overbearing mood of despair, like everyone is unhappy, angry or suffering from some kind of emotional trauma.

Then I look at mine and the only character currently with any significant emotional damage, has long since gotten over it.

So what is it? Did I miss a memo or something or has my medication turned me into a writer like Tomino when he made Overman King Gainer?

[Vent Noir]

Okay, I found that TV Tropes has a So You Want To Write a Humongous Mecha Anime page - would the people here agree or disagree with the things that are on there?

[Antares]

@Heretic: I can't speak for ShadowCell, but I personally have noticed that my own mood for writing affects the general tone a lot. For example, when things were not well with an ex, a bit of that sneaked (or became blatantly obvious) in the text in dialogue or otherwise.

I wouldn't think ShadowCell employs the broody-goth-dark just as a gimmick, but at one point is was very chic for all games, books and movies to be dark and gray and suchlike. So thematics come and go, and especially in Gundam the protagonists have traditionally been borderline basket cases (if not the protagonist then someone else certainly filled in) who angst about stuff because, well, most protagonists are teenagers and many teenagers really do go through all kinds of crap.

Just my two cents about GX7; in the end he wasn't serious about writing. Or at least it didn't show. Like so many said, he blew off critique, which was in my case lobbed as softly as I could given that he was new. But he seemed to be utterly unwilling or incapable of learning. I also support ShadowCell's hypothesis of a personal agenda visible in his texts, and when he put out the Saddam Hussein -bit, I think he ventured out from fledgling, floundering authorship into outright trolldom.

[Big B]

When you jump the shark, so to speak, the credibility isn't there.

I wonder what some people have learned/realized through writing.
Personally, I've found that posting a blurb about a character's bio outside their name/age/hair/etc. doesn't do a whole lot. I still keep those notes, but in an unpublished state, and for two reasons: 1, it's hard to really sum up a character in a sentence. It's a good starting point for an internal memo to yourself, but I felt it to be constraining. 2, it takes away from the work in your story in developing the character.

I don't mind having a list of who's who, but beyond a quick rundown, I've started to think it gets in the way.


Another point, which I think has been touched on somewhat, is wrapping up the story. Specifically, the characters themselves. I have a few characters that will definitely die, because, they kinda need to, but others, I'm not entirely sure what fate they'll have.

[Heretic]

Another point, which I think has been touched on somewhat, is wrapping up the story. Specifically, the characters themselves. I have a few characters that will definitely die, because, they kinda need to, but others, I'm not entirely sure what fate they'll have.

Sometimes you can wrap things like that up in an epilogue. Unless your question is more of a “What the heck do I do with them now?”

In some cases this is easer to figure out than in others. I mean, if you have a character that started off one person, then through the story arc and influences on them, became someone very different, they can’t very well go back to their old life.

If you take a store clerk, have them fall into a Gundam Cockpit, fight to survive, go through an angst ridden phase where they question why they have to be the one to go out and fight. Then have them Man up, go out and become a hero, they can’t very well go back to being a store clerk. Although if they were desperate for a job, the only things they could put on their resume would be “Store Clerk” and “Piloted Giant Robot to save humanity from a war.” I wonder what credentials like that would get you in today’s job market?

[Edit] Curse you Vent Noir! You’ve got me reading TV Tropes

[Seraphic]

Okay, topic for discussion. Are there ANY happy characters in gundam Fan Fiction? I mean sure one of the major themes in gundam is the sorrow of war, but is there anyone in gundam who is genuinely happy with their life? Not counting mentally broken psychopathic killing machines, megalomaniac despots or delusional heroes with a massive disconnect from reality, (looking at you Kira Yamato and company…)

Oh, a topic I can comment on. Very rare. =)

I suppose the reason for "happy characters" being uncommon is the fact that it is difficult to make visible or significant character development with them. Before a person enters a war, the only real issues you can have are personal ones, and for some strange reason war helps you resolve or get over them?? The thing about having a happy character is that you have to flesh them out well enough to justify their presence in the story. Otherwise, they're just another name to remember with nothing to really accomplish.

(On a side note, I do find it somewhat silly that every character in a Gundam story has to have some major drama to deal with. It almost feels gimmicky and soap-opera-melodramatic.)

While several chapters (meaning several years) away from existing, my GW project does have such a "happy character". Since he does not have any personal issues to resolve, I had to approach his development completely differently. While he does not really have any personal anguish, he has to watch as those around him suffer and fall to despair. His desire to help others--even wage war for them--is what justifies his presence. His empathy for others is what creates his conflicts.

He pilots this.

Does any of that sound reasonable or am I just fooling myself?

***

Anyway, I'm really sorry for not being around....for the past year.... I'm looking to pick up reading fiction again soon, but I have to give priority to the works posted on The Lost Citadel (DAG101's page.) I actually read 100% of the works posted there. Consider posting there as well at MT if you are looking for guaranteed readership somewhere down the line.

I've also been thinking very hard about trying to finish reading epyoncustom's Infinite Energy story, but I am very concerned about the tremendous suffering I would endure. I think Kenji may have been the only other person to make evident he was reading it. He knows what sort of suffering I am talking about....

edit: wtf is up with dA links, anyway? attempting to fix.

[Heretic]

I suppose the reason for "happy characters" being uncommon is the fact that it is difficult to make visible or significant character development with them. Before a person enters a war, the only real issues you can have are personal ones, and for some strange reason war helps you resolve or get over them?? The thing about having a happy character is that you have to flesh them out well enough to justify their presence in the story. Otherwise, they're just another name to remember with nothing to really accomplish.

I don’t think that quite fits. Not everyone deals with the stress of war the same way. Some brake down, some toughen up, some laugh at it and some even embrace it. Watch some of the more critically acclaimed war movies or TV shows (Not counting M*A*S*H) and you will see many of these realistically portrayed. Plus, not everyone experiences negative change in war. It kind of tarnishes the whole “War is hell” thing but it does happen.

A good, and most recent example of a protagonist with a more up beat attitude would be Robert Downy Jr’s portrayal of Tony Stark in Iron Man and Iron Man 2. Sure he’s got a glowing super reactor in his chest that could potentially kill him, but that doesn’t stop him from being a snarky little bastard. Sure, sometimes he needs his ass kicked to get his head back in gear, but it’s not like he’s sitting in the dark brooding over his issues. He has issues, he knows he does, he may act out occasionally because of them, but they are not his defining characteristics.

My point is, in real life people go through difficult situations all the time, they and the people around them manage to get through without all turning into depressing shades of their former selves. People deal with it, they manage, they move past and sometimes they eventually grow because of it.

Again, maybe it’s the medication that’s making me feel like primary characters don’t have to be giant balls of despair in order to be interesting.

[Seraphic]

No, you're absolutely right. But I realize that we were thinking of different things. I was thinking of a happy character as one who has already overcome his turmoil. And I think what you were referring to is a character's composure and temperance in the story. Sorry, I tend to get kind of abstract and I have a hard time explaining myself.

But yes, characters can be written well and be interesting without being a ball of anger and depression. As you said, Tony Stark was a rather refreshing portrayal. Also Sanosuke in Samurai X: Reflection also readily demonstrates the contrast between himself and the rest of the cast being tortured and gloomy.

The question is not about the presence of conflict, stress, or suffering but how the character is able to deal with it. On that note, I would personally say a "happy character" would be challenging to write simply because I don't know very many of them. =p

I do understand that every individual deals with his/her stress in unique and varied ways, but fleshing that out in text as well as I understand by intuition would take a lifetime to write. I guess a light touch of showing how the character works would have to do. Walking the readers through their entire thought process or inner monologue could be overkill.

...God, do I need practice...!

[Big B]

Another point, which I think has been touched on somewhat, is wrapping up the story. Specifically, the characters themselves. I have a few characters that will definitely die, because, they kinda need to, but others, I'm not entirely sure what fate they'll have.

Sometimes you can wrap things like that up in an epilogue. Unless your question is more of a “What the heck do I do with them now?”

In some cases this is easer to figure out than in others. I mean, if you have a character that started off one person, then through the story arc and influences on them, became someone very different, they can’t very well go back to their old life.

If you take a store clerk, have them fall into a Gundam Cockpit, fight to survive, go through an angst ridden phase where they question why they have to be the one to go out and fight. Then have them Man up, go out and become a hero, they can’t very well go back to being a store clerk. Although if they were desperate for a job, the only things they could put on their resume would be “Store Clerk” and “Piloted Giant Robot to save humanity from a war.” I wonder what credentials like that would get you in today’s job market?

[Edit] Curse you Vent Noir! You’ve got me reading TV Tropes

Well, part of the problem comes down to if it makes sense to conclude certain characters with death or not. I have some ideas for the epilogue that I've written in part to get out of my system, but other parts I can't do until I figure out what I'm going to do. I'm definitely not pulling a "kill 'em all", and I have a happy ending that will conclude two characters fates as far as this series goes. (You can probably guess if you've read the story progression).

"Oh, you piloted a mecha. Do you think that you can handle a forklift?"

[Nitramy]

@ Nitramy: I assume you're talking about an AU Destiny or a rewrite, then? The Impulse certainly was an innovative and eccentric concept at the start of GSD but I would think when ZAFT moved on to Destiny and Legend they pretty much left the Impulse be (I don't know if the combiner-mobile suits enjoy more popularity in ASTRAY). You seem to suggest that its usual combination would be altered into somehow interchangeable parts; the problem here is that I am unable to visualize how that would work, exactly.

Sorry for the late reply. I had my own other stories to write.

Story-wise, yes, this will probably be an AU - though the ripples the Getter Robo-styled Impulse and its creator would make will only begin to be felt somewhere halfway through the saga.

Tech-wise, there are many loopholes one could use to make a Getter Robo-esque Impulse work in the Cosmic Era: Mirage Colloid Beam Drive systems, nanomachines, sentient energy-based life-forms found during the exploration of deep space before CE 73...

And speaking of criticism, saying "x and y could have been done better by adding z, a, b, and c" would go a longer way than saying "x and y sucked". Spoonful of honey, bucketful of gall, etc. etc.

[DAG101]

On the subject of happy characters, I tend to try and populate stories with characters who are kind of middle-ground--happy, but still with problems. Then, they encounter a situation that makes things difficult for them.

I also try and have characters finish their character arc happy-ish, though it may take a long time. I like sad stories, but I like happy endings, too, so that's how I write.

[Heretic]

Perhaps happy isn't the right word. Well grounded perhaps? Less likely to become unstable over minor things when there are more pressing issues, like a war and such. That was one thing I found refreshing about Mars Daybreak. Most of the characters were fairly up beat or at least capable of finding happiness in one form or another. Even when the main character thought his girlfriend was dead he still reacted like a normal human being, putting on a brave face but being subconsciously effected, causing frustration and a lowered capacity for things that usually come naturally to him. He bounced back quick when he found the conviction to believe that she was still alive.

That's one thing that many a Gundam character seem to lack, conviction. Sometimes they gain them but in the case of SEED, people seem to waffle on their convictions at the drop of a hat. Athron in Destiny is the best example. That's why I liked 00 despite some of the weirdness near the end. The characters had convictions and reasons for the things they did, notably Saji Crossroad. Who, despite progressing to a point where he could understand why Celestial Being did what it did, remained a non combatant for the most part. Sure he agreed to pilot the O-Riser but it's not like he tried to shoot anyone with it.

That is what I liked about him as a character. He didn't believe in war, and he stuck to his convictions by not fighting. Unlike a certain “perfect coordinator” who doesn't like people fighting, so he jumps in his “I'm more powerful than everyone else” Gundam and starts fighting the people who are fighting to try and make them stop fighting...

But enough on that for now.

On the topic of “ulterior motives in fan Fiction” or “having an agenda” as ShadowCell described how GX7 went about it.

I don't think it's inherently bad to include some of your ideals in your writing, it's when you let those ideals define what you are writing that it becomes bad. That and writing them poorly, but that is a little bit harder to define. In my own Fan Fictions I've included some of my personal ideology, for Orphan (Which is indefinitely on hold for now) I was working towards a theme along the lines of “Nuclear power isn't inherently bad, it's how we use it.” I was doing this because SEED has a definite anti nuke vibe. Having grown up around nuclear power plants and having a dad who is a nuclear technician, I actually know a fair bit more than the general public about how nuclear power works, so the vibe in SEED irked me. (as an aside, the information I know is also made freely available to the public, most people just don't take the time to find it out.)

With my SEED Shadows, I'm taking on another SEED generalization. That being that anyone who wants to fight must be Evil. That isn't true, lots of people on both sides of a conflict can have very good reasons to fight. So the people who fight, (when the fighting actually starts) will have their reasons for doing so.

Well, that was a long post...

I think I'll try to actually work on my Fan Fic now

[Big B]

I think you're on the right track regarding beliefs and writing. While here, it is going to be some form of fiction, to make certain elements believable, they must inherently come from reality. It is most probable that the ideas and experiences held by the author are going to manifest some way within the story. It's impossible and unreasonable to ask any author to completely remove said beliefs and experiences from the story.

Having said that, blatantly shoving a viewpoint down the reader's throat is a bad move. If I believe the Flat Earth Society or Flying Spaghetti Monster and use my work as a soap box, likely, it won't end well...unless you're doing comedy.
*Kira doing a HiMAT beam spam but switched with spaghetti and meatballs.*
*Setsuna believing that the earth is flat instead of their being no god.*
Even then, the comedic aspects might still fall flat.


It's also a bad move to merge ideas that are extremes if you're working within the defined parameters offered by a preexisting work. Having, say, Alucard from Hellsing pop up in, say, a Star Wars work just wouldn't fly. As cool as that might be, it's likely going with the cool idea over-riding the basics of good story telling. It's not to say I wouldn't enjoy Alucard duking it out with Vader, but other aspects need to work as well.

[DAG101]

I agree--my ideals and beliefs almost certainly spill into my stories. I just try and make sure it doesn't interfere with the story, because that's what readers want in fiction--a STORY, not a PHILOSOPHY

[Nitramy]

Another thing you have to watch out for is character bashing.

I mean, even if you don't like so-and-so as a character, you have to give him/her the requisite "15 minutes of fame" then ease that character out of the story slowly. If you really have to criticize a character, do so without exaggeration - I find that the best way to go about with this is to use events and dialogue grounded in reality. Either the target shapes up (becomes more likable) or resists (goes over the deep end).

I don't know, that's generally how I deal with characters I dislike.

[rebel_cheese]

No character from Gundam SEED Destiny really bugs me that much, surprisingly. The troubled production of Destiny basically makes me give them all a pass now. I did change some of the personalities for my fic, but that was so the story could move in a different direction of my choosing. This means Stellar doesn't sound brain-damaged. But I really don't hate any character, not the way I used to.

[ShadowCell]

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with having a message or an idea you're trying to convey through your writing. That's what writing is for, although I don't think fanfiction is a good vehicle for a sociopolitical or cultural message. The problem with GX7 is that he was as subtle about it as a Chick Tract, and that kind of political/religious message-pushing isn't going to work on a forum that doesn't allow political/religious discussion.

As for well-grounded, well-adjusted characters, I think it's worth pointing out that it's awfully tricky to write a compelling coming-of-age story about someone who's already got their act together. Well-grounded, well-adjusted characters just don't seem to be very interesting to a lot of people, because as far as most of us are concerned, there isn't anything "wrong" with them.

[Heretic]

Maybe we're getting hung up on the semantics. I agree that someone who has nothing wrong with them makes for an uninteresting character. But I have the personal view that it's not what's wrong with you that makes you unstable, but how you handle it. Some of us handle it poorly, I know I handled it poorly for many years. It's only recently that I've been seeking professional help with my issues, contrary to what you might think, these professionals help me by encouraging me to deviate form the norm. To be the wildly individualistic, crazy person that I am.

The way I look at things, it isn't necessary to be “Socially well adjusted” to be “mentally well adjusted”. Just as I am technically more stable when I let my individuality shine, someone who represses that individuality in order to fit with the “social norm”, could in fact be making themselves mentally unstable. This kind of thing can exist in an infinite number of fascists across the whole spectrum of personality types. Also, someone can think that they are perfectly fine, until they encounter something that irrevocably changes how they see the world. Forcing them to find a new balance.

Character progression and coming of age stories don't have to be about people with deeply ingrained psychological faults. SEED Destiny examples, Shinn with his psychological damage from the death of his family, Kira and Lacus with their persistent and possibly willful naiveté regarding the nature of conflict, Athrun with his inability to stick to a conviction. In the real world these kinds of things are sings of psychological illness and all of them would be given professional help.

Is it too much to ask for characters who-- while going through that phase of life where they question and define their scene of self and personal values-- aren't hobbled by some horrendous mental trauma?

[Big B]

Possibly.

I've started to entertain the thought, despite previously stating I probably wouldn't, of a SEED fic. I still have a lot of work before it's even a remote possibility, but the main character is gung-ho on war and when he's legally able to enlist, he does. He's a natural living in Orb. He'll also be "gifted" with the SEED factor, which is something I want to explore since the series never really did much with that except for a handful of folks.

But, I need to research a lot of CE stuff, including ages, as well as define the characters and main points to address in the story. I don't want to have too much actively being worked on at once, but with Gundam Deus wrapping up, I may have more time. Or not. Having kids has a strong tendency to whittle away free time.

[Vent Noir]

Back in an old SEED thread, I posited the theory that Lacus Clyne was a "super-leader" in much the same way that Soma Peiris was a supersoldier - she was designed to be beautiful and charismatic and intelligent, someone that people would easily follow.

I think that a character who is genetically designed to be a leader is an interesting concept, but the problem is: How does one write a character like that without her being a Mary Sue? I'm thinking that her character arc should focus on her learning to make use of her gifts, and what ends she should put them to, but any suggestions would be appreciated.